My Crunchy Zen Era

The Science of Joy: How Positive Psychology Can Rewire Your Life with Jackie Oña Cascarano

• Nicole Swisher • Episode 17

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If your nervous system has been living on espresso and good intentions, this episode is your gentle nudge to breathe, laugh, and maybe rethink everything you thought you knew about happiness. Nicole chats with Jackie Oña Cascarano — Executive Career and Wellness Coach, and founder of Juno Women’s Collective — about the actual science of feeling good and the surprisingly simple ways to get there.

Jackie breaks down the PERMA model of Positive Psychology (that’s Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Achievement — basically the five ingredients for a well-balanced brain smoothie). She and Nicole dig into how to weave those elements into real life — especially when your calendar looks like a CVS receipt. Expect fresh takes on gratitude, micro-joys, and why chasing “balance” might be missing the point.

The two also get real about burnout culture, the weird perfectionism epidemic, and how the tools of Positive Psychology can help you rewire your thoughts, reclaim your purpose, and maybe even enjoy your to-do list. Jackie’s story — from courtroom chaos to coaching clarity — is proof that flourishing doesn’t mean having it all figured out; it means learning to thrive, mess and all.

This episode feels like brain science in a cozy sweater — smart, funny, and full of “oh wow, that’s me” moments. If you’ve ever wanted to feel calmer and more alive without quitting your job to move to Bali, this conversation’s your sign.

Enjoy the episode?  Follow the show, share the episode with someone who needs a little extra joy in their life, and leave a quick review. 

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SPEAKER_00:

What's something crunchy or Zen that you've done lately? So I am really into the pursuit of quiet these days. Okay. So I think the world is so loud. My my world is really loud. I have three children and a loud husband and uh two jobs, and I'm also in grad school. So there's so much. And I just feel like for me personally, and I do, I think for women generally, there's so much stimuli. So I have been in the pursuit of quiet. And whether Nicole, that is in like quiet time in the morning on my like rocking chair, that's wonderful. I've also done a quiet, a quiet day. Have you done a quiet day? No. It's insane. So you I I went, it was organized by this ministry, and you go to someone's house, and it's legit what it sounds like, which is like you do not speak for a day. And they give you um like journal prompts and whatnot, so you have something to do, but it is profound. You feel you, you, you walk out of it feeling really refreshed and really clear.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. It's interesting because off the top of my head, I can think of two guests recently who have kind of alluded to that as well. And I feel like it's really becoming a theme. It's definitely a theme in my life. I was texting a friend earlier and I was like, how do people do these slow lives? Like, right? Where do like what do they do? I want that. She was like, What are you talking about? I was like, here's a YouTube video. Yeah, tell me what you think they got here. But it is, it's kind of following that quiet and calm and like, yes. I I've heard someone say that like in the past, we only got the news once a day, and then we got it twice a day, and now we get it constantly, and we're not meant to get it constantly.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I think about the cortisol spikes throughout the day, just I mean, through that alone, which is like one component of the barrage of things we should not be exposed to at all times.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, I like that quiet day. So quiet, my pursuit of quiet is my crunchy zen.

SPEAKER_03:

I like it. Welcome to my crunchy zen era. Uh, this is a weekly podcast filled with a little fun, a little humor, and a whole lot of curiosity. I'm your host, Nicole Swisher, and today I am joined by my guest, Jackie Onya Cascarano. Welcome. Thank you. Jackie owns two businesses. Um, your mindset coach, which is a coaching business specifically for lawyers, and Juno, which is why don't you tell me what Juno is exactly?

SPEAKER_00:

So Juno Women's Collective is a network for women who are seeking clarity. I would say clarity and momentum in their next professional chapters. So it is a mix of women who are coming from different backgrounds, but they all share something in common, which is that they're in a transition of some sort professionally. They're trying to figure out what's next. Or some of them are about to launch a business. They like they know what's next, but they just want support of a community and more clarity.

SPEAKER_03:

Gotcha. I like that. I feel like we all need that a little bit. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me what's a memory that you wish you could relive and why.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so I was thinking about this. I and I was wondering, like, should this be some sort of profound memory, like my wedding day or something like that? And then I was like, no, you know what? It's um, I go on girls' weekends once a year with my two best girlfriends from high school. So I have known these girls, these ladies, because I'm 45. I like to think of myself as a girl. I've known these girls since we were like 13 and 14. And we live in different cities. And every time we see each other, we have the most fun. And like we laugh so hard we cry. And that those are the memories I would love to relive, like on a like a daily basis. It's just like the joy and like belly laughs, and like we don't even, we don't even say anything. It's like a look and we just start cracking up. And that's that's joyful and beautiful. I would love to relive that more.

SPEAKER_03:

It's fun when you've had friends for so long that they know your body language, they know your facial expressions. Like you can't really get away with anything.

SPEAKER_00:

A thousand percent. And like the jokes persist like 30, 30 years later, it's like the same joke, which is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what my sister and I were like. When we play um catchphrase, we are unbeatable. Love's amazing. Love that. Yeah. So, Jackie, I'm really excited to have you here today. Um, as a lawyer, as a woman who we all go through like a lot of career changes, and I'm fascinated by what you've put together. Can you tell me more about your coaching business? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'm a la I am a former attorney. So I used to practice law and pivoted to advising in law schools. So, like my coaching, I have like a coaching counseling bone that like I was um, it was uh really neat to use that in a law school setting. Um, so I have been doing coaching in some capacity for 15 years or so. Um I focus on attorneys in your mindset coach because of course I used to be one, so I can really identify with a what a lot of female attorneys are going through. And it's it's a tough profession, like Nicole, you know this. It's just it's just a really tough profession, period, just like generally. And then I think that if you are um a woman uh that adds to it. I think I do think it's more challenging for women for a variety of reasons. And then I think if you're the kind of person who is seeking, if you're the kind of person who's seeking balance and harmony and fulfillment professionally, the the legal profession can be really hard. So so I encounter a lot of women that want to be good at what they do. So they they want to be good lawyers. Maybe they they even are good lawyers, like they're like, I'm good at this, and they're also not particularly happy in their work. So they want to be happy in their work and successful in their work. And that's there's a fallacy, I think, that lawyers in particular can't have that. It's like you gotta like endure. Like if you want to be successful, you have to endure the lifestyle that comes with it. Um, or you could just be happy and not be a lawyer, you know? So it's like there is a sweet spot. It takes work, uh, but that's what that's what I do with a lot of lawyer, um, lawyer clients within my work.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you focus more on women or do you take men and women as your clients?

SPEAKER_00:

I work with both men and women. I naturally just have tended to uh have more female clients.

SPEAKER_03:

And what do you think it is about women that makes the legal profession more difficult?

SPEAKER_00:

Um I think there are just systemic issues. And we've talked about this. Um I mean I think the the patriarchy was the answer. The patriarchy. Um I think there are systemic issues um that make it more challenging for for a female human to be, you know, in a in the legal profession. I think it's a lot better than it used to be. So when I was when I was a younger, um, when I was a young associate in the mid-2000s, um, you know, we I mean, there was a women's committee, I'm sure, but there there weren't, you know, uh DEI B initiatives like there are today. And of course, some of them are going to the way falling to the wayside uh for political reasons, but you know, they exist and they are people are paying attention to them. Belonging is a thing now. Um and it wasn't like that in the early to mid-2000s for sure. So it's certainly gotten better, but I think that just for women, um, it it can be hard when you know the majority of partners in a law firm are men. And if you are a woman who wants to have both a career and a family, it's just challenging in any profession. But specifically, I think in the legal profession, it's just really, really hard.

SPEAKER_03:

It is. I mean, I I don't have children, but I've watched a number of my female colleagues go through going on maternity leave. And one thing that I have observed is that as they get closer, I would say like a month, because now everyone's thinking, well, the baby could come early too. Everything, everything starts to be taken off their plate. Yeah. And so their hours drop. And a most of the time, I don't know if our listeners know this, like your hours as a lawyer, your billable hours directly relate to what you're gonna get paid, salary, bonus, reviews, everything, what kinds of um opportunities you get at the firm, because the higher your billing, the more valuable you are in most firms. And so they have to like start to wean off projects to the point where they might have almost nothing to do for a week or two. Then they're gone on maternity leave, and then they come back and they often don't get their work back because somebody else has now taken over. And some things I've heard is I mean, it's just easier, the client's used to it. And so now they have to like fight to get work back while also balancing being a new mom and all that comes with that. And so I've I felt I feel very strongly about that. I don't know what the answer is. One thing I've always felt is that the men have to take paternity leave. Yeah. Like I think friendship requires. But anyway, that when you speak to that, that's something that I feel very strongly about, even though I I've never experienced it as a woman in that way. Um, I've just seen it happen over and over again. And it's I've seen my friends crying in their offices repeatedly.

SPEAKER_00:

It's hard. And then and then they'll come back and there's there's no such thing as part-time. No, there's no like like they'll they'll just pay you half of what you used to get paid, but but you're not you're not working half as much. It's just so amorphous. So that's another thing I hear with people that are trying to get back and they're trying to reclaim that. Um I don't, it's it's it's systemic. So I mean there are always these initiatives trying to like, you know, rewire the legal profession. And it's like, oh, well, it's that's hard. It's just really hard. And and the the words you used where it's um basically the more you bill, the more valuable you are. I mean, like womp womp. Like it it's it's true. And then also like, you know, what are we telling ourselves every day when we go to bed at night? The more I the more hours I bill, the more valuable I am. Yep. I mean, you know, obviously that means that pertains to work, but there's a part of that that I think you you just sort of absorb.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And so the other, I mean, we could go so far into the legal profession, but I will I'll say like the other thing that is challenging is then if you're efficient, if you don't bill as much time because actually that project didn't take as much time, um, you're penalized for it. And frankly, I've always been the type of lawyer that I don't run the clock. I get the work done, I get it done efficiently. And I know of people who are not that way. And so my my bonuses weren't as much. And yeah, we'll stop there with that. But I it is it's I I I think there should be a way to change it. I just I don't know what it is. Yeah. Um anyway, so why why did you switch from being a lawyer originally?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so I was an attorney, I was a litigator. I practiced in Philly. Um only for a couple of years, actually. I was maybe I was an attorney maybe for four years. I was not not, I did not practice for very long.

SPEAKER_03:

Did you know your like the first year, did you know it was like I don't want to keep doing this, or did it take Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I think I probably knew in law school. Okay. I went to law school. I had I had a um a sudden death in the family at the end of college, and life was just kind of crazy. And then I was like, oh, I got into a good law school. I guess I'll just go. Like it was one of those situations where, you know, when you're 22, you are like a baby. Like part of the brain really is like literally not formed. Um, so I was dealing with personal stuff, and then I got into a good law school, and my mom was like, Go to law school. And it was also after 9-11, so like the economy was crazy pants. Yeah. So I was like, Well, I mean, grad school sounds good. So I went to law school and when I first started practicing, I basically kind of fell into a practice area that wasn't really well suited for my personality type. I'm a I'm a coach counselor type, and I was um a litigator. I was doing insurance defense litigation, and I didn't really feel like I was helping anybody necessarily. So I knew it was gonna be short-lived, or I, or I knew I needed to pivot. But as you know, again, and this is not like an interview on the legal industry, but this is one facet of it. It's really hard to change practice areas. Really hard, yep. Yeah. Um, and especially and then it was 2008, and the economy was also, you know, bananas again uh for the recession. So at that point, I was like, I'm just I was like, this is God telling me to try something else. Yeah. So um I then pivoted to work at uh a law school, which was so fun and really cool. And I loved working with students. Um and I was I worked in the career services office um at two law schools. Which law schools were they? So I worked at Notre Dame. Okay, and I got my husband, I said to my husband, who's an entrepreneur, we had a one-year-old baby at the time. I was like, hey, so if I just apply to a bunch of law schools around the country, would you be game to move somewhere? And uh and he's like, Yeah, because he could work from wherever. So we moved to South Bend, Indiana. We lived there for two years, and I loved it there. It was so it was such a great job. Um, but he's from Florida, so he was really cold. You get that. It was so cold. The man was so cold. You're from Minnesota, is it? You get it. Um the Midwest is is a different brand of freezing. Um, and then we moved to Nashville, where I worked at Vanderbilt Law School.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

That is how I ended up in.

SPEAKER_03:

That's how you ended up here. Yeah. Cool. So with these different hats that you've worn over the years, have you seen like there's kind of this pattern or through line where you can see how your strengths were being used and kind of evolved to where you are today?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, I think the the thread that ties all of what I do together and has really, since I stopped being an attorney, frankly, um, is is really counseling and coaching. So I I see myself as an advocate for others. Um, I love to, I feel fulfilled when I can take a situation that's kind of messy and help someone find a path in it. So that's really fulfilling to me. And that's what I did when I was at, you know, the two law schools. Um, that's certainly what I do coaching individually with attorneys. And then with Juno, um, that's exactly what we do. It's it's for Juno, you're you're placed in a cohort essentially, and you have a curriculum and you're working through, you know, how to get that clarity. So again, it's that like guiding somebody through a situation that's kind of messy and making it neater and clearer. How long has Juno been around? So Juno's been around for about a year and a half. Okay. Um, so it's relatively new and um it's a startup and um it's great. It's growing organically, and it's absolutely the most fun thing I've done. And I felt very, I felt very called to do it. I'm not, I'm not the entrepreneur type. Um my husband is. I'm not. I love um, I'm an Enneagram six. I don't know if you're an Enneagram person. Yeah. Um, so we love safety and like stability. Um so I I don't know how I decided to launch a business. Two businesses. Yeah, two businesses, right? Yeah. The one, the your mindset coach is sort of very reliant on me. Okay. It's just my coaching practice. But you're right. See, I'm not giving myself enough credit for the fact that it is a business. Um, but Juno is more out there. Um, I mean, there's, you know, we're we're seeking members and and whatnot. But I felt very called to do it because I knew when I, when I was going through a career pivot years ago, I felt very isolated. And I remember recently before, before launching Juno, I had coffee. I was I was networking a lot because I was um at that particular stage of life. I was like in my networking era, and I kept on coming into contact with women who were saying, I'm I'm I'm wanting something more. I don't know what I want, but I feel a stirring for something different. And I feel really alone in this and I don't know what to do. And I just kept on running into women who were seeking a community. And I was like, wow, that that that means something.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I feel like we there are different communities for different times in your life. Yeah. And um I've been noticing that for myself lately. And I think it is something you have to be extremely intentional about. That's part of what actually brought me to Nashville was I just felt very isolated in Minnesota. Um there were a lot of things going on in Minneapolis, and I just I just started noticing all my friends were kind of getting married, doing their own thing, or they were friends from work, which to what extent they were like healthy friendships. I I mean I could say, but we I don't want to go into it, but it just wasn't uplifting, fulfilling, and I just was feeling called to try something different. And so when I came to Nashville, I was like, I am gonna be very intentional about this. And now some of my community I met in the first year, like quite a few have left Nashville. And so now I'm kind of like, all right, I need to search that out again. Yeah, yeah. Community is really important. Yeah. Um, so you said you felt called to start Juno. Was there any like moment where it was like, this is it? Like I have to do this.

SPEAKER_00:

Um it was several moments. So I so Juno runs on a cohort model, as I mentioned. So it's it's a small group of women uh curated um that are in this group in a group together. We call them circles. And the reason I decided to model it off um or model it like that was because I was modeling it off of um an entrepreneurs group my husband was in. There's um an entrepreneurs organization. It's actually nationwide, uh, but he was a part of it in Nashville called EO, literally very kitchen. Um there's a female um uh version of that called Brain Trust. So they're I am so familiar with Brain Trust.

SPEAKER_03:

I've actually like given an award of Brain Trust. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So there are these two organizations that are um really incredible and they are they have this a similar model where you're in this group, it's all confidential, you get together every couple of weeks. It's like group therapy, um, and it's very much focused. Theirs is very much focused on your business.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And my husband was going through it and he was just thriving. And I got very incensed one day. And I was like, why is there not something like that for me? I wasn't an entrepreneur yet. Um, so I'm like, well, I can't join. I'm not an entrepreneur. I don't have a business. Um, and then even if I were to launch a business, there are these uh revenue thresholds for each. So EO is like a million dollars. Yeah. Right. That's that takes a while. Yeah. Um, brain trust, I don't, I don't know what it is off top. I think it's last time I checked, it was$100,000. It could be less now.

SPEAKER_03:

I think that's correct.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But but that's a threshold. And if you are a woman who is just launching a business, um that's gonna, that's gonna take a little bit to get to that$100,000 threshold for revenue. So I was very incensed and was like telling my husband, I was like, I don't understand why I don't have access to something like this. And I felt like he had such the things they were doing were so cool and so focused on personal and professional growth. And I kind of felt like it was being um gatekeep a little bit. It's like, well, why don't average normal women have access to all this great material that you business owners, you know, have access to.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And thus Juno was born.

SPEAKER_00:

So now I started Juno, yeah. And and I worked the curriculum for Juno is different. I mean, I it's personally it's personal growth focused for professional fulfillment and professional momentum. So the the ethos of Juno is really you need to figure out yourself before you can figure out what you want to do next. You know, that's I think a challenge.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And part of that is involved involves positive psychology, right? Yes. And also in your coaching practice, you involve that. Can you tell me more about what that is?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So positive psychology is a um it is a type of psychology different than mainstream psychology. It was founded in the early 2000s at the University of Pennsylvania by um a gentleman named Martin Seligman. And he's basically like the grandfather of positive psychology. And it differs from mainstream psychology in that mainstream psychology has always focused on kind of the bad stuff in the human mind, like whatever you might find in the DSM, right? So like anxiety or depression or schizophrenia, like all the bad stuff we hear about when we're um when you're taking like abnormal psych in college, like all the bad stuff. And positive psychology, the premise is basically like if you were to take a human mind and take all the bad stuff out, like take the depression and the anxiety and take it out. Um, would that, you know, human mind, would that person be a happy, uh thriving, fulfilled person? Not necessarily. They would just be, you know, kind of a blank slate. How do you make that person kind of run on all cylinders? How do you help that person thrive and be um a flourishing human being? Because why like why else are we on this earth except to thrive and to be the best versions of ourselves? So that's that's the approach of positive psychology. And I incorporate it um a lot into my coaching uh with lawyers and and with anyone. Um, and then for Juno, it is really, you know, the the curriculum is based on positive psychology. So the curriculum piece for every Juno meeting that each circle has, there's a different like facet of positive psychology that they dig into.

SPEAKER_03:

And is it are there really specific activities or conversations or way of like changing how you're framing things that that is kind of the focus of the curriculum?

SPEAKER_00:

There are there are several. The the one, I think, foundational um lens through which to look at um, you know, your life if you're looking at it from a positive positive psychology perspective is an acronym uh called PERMA. So P-E-R-M-A. And that's D and it's basically the five dimensions of human flourishing. So the P is for positive feelings or positive emotions, and that's exactly what it sounds like, right? You're the the experience of positivity throughout your day, right? Joy, curiosity, awe, wonder. Um, E is the next one. E is for engagement or flow, like when you're in that state where things are um like you don't even feel time going by, like you're just really enjoying what you're doing. Flow happens or engagement, flow happens when you are equally matching a strength to a challenge. And that's that's when you're in really, a really good flow. If the challenge is a little too hard for your strength, think about it, you wouldn't be in flow. It'd be like too hard. Yeah. But if it was also too easy, you would also not be in flow. A lot of people, um, I like to say I'm not sporty, like I'm not a sporty person, but I hear a lot of sporty people tell me like when they play pickleball, for example, or like basketball, they they have a lot of flow. Yeah. Not anything I would have I would know about. Um the next one is R, and that's for relationships. And that goes back to the conversation about community. Yeah. So like the depth of relationships really matters. Um, you know, how authentic you can be, you know, in a group of friends, family, um, just the community, having a community where you can be your authentic self. Uh the next one is M for meaning, and that's basically identifying with something bigger than yourself. Uh, that can be faith. Um, a lot of people will have M for meaning in their careers and in their work, and that's really cool. That's a beautiful thing if you're able to do that and feel that on a daily basis. Yeah. And then the last one is A. So for perma, A. And that's achievement. And that's basically pursuing goals, like setting goals for yourself and pursuing them. That is like we're wired for that. And even I'm not, I'm actually not competitive. I'm I'm my children and my husband are crazy competitive. So we play Monopoly. I'm like, I'm not having fun. Like you guys, I don't, I don't wanna, this is this is crazy. And yet I still am driven to set a goal for myself and achieve it and make progress towards it. So we're kind of wired for that.

SPEAKER_03:

Does it have to be a big goal or can there be like smaller ones?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, they can be certainly be smaller ones, yeah. Um, and I think, and that for Juno, that's something we work on for sure, is like just identifying bigger long-term goals and then also smaller little G goals. Um and then the important thing to know about PERMA is that none of those dimensions are more determinative per se of your overall flourishing and happiness, but they all matter. And it's like the the deficiency of one is important. So what we do is, you know, one thing we'll do early is just sort of try to analyze your perma levels, right? Like which one is lower. That's interesting. And it's and it's good, it's it's just being aware of it's actually really good.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I'm like thinking it through. I'm like, what would what would I be low on?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you don't, and sometimes you don't even realize it, you know, yeah. Yeah. Um, wow. Or my relationships could be better. Or and also sometimes you're just in like, you know, like a chapter of life where maybe you're not gonna have a lot of meaning because you're you know, you're focused on something else. Like maybe you're maybe it's or it's shifts, like maybe you're on maternity leave and your meaning is now squarely, you have meaning, but it's it is no it's not professional anymore. Like you are focused on something else. Um or to give yourself a little bit of grace in terms of like, you know, I'm I I just got a health diagnosis. No wonder my positive emotions are not as high as they would they could be. Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And do you have examples of whether it's from uh Martin Seligman's work or what you've observed personally of how incorporative psychology in someone's life has caused a lot of change for them?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I have so many clients. I mean, those are those are the examples. Um a lot of it it's really unique, I think it's like really unique to the individual and like what they need. Um I I worked with a lot of I worked with one fellow who wasn't an attorney, but one of his um one of his challenges was basically it was an outlook and a mindset. Mindset and lim and limiting beliefs. So we worked really hard on limiting beliefs and sort of arguing against these automatic limiting beliefs that would have that would occur when something would happen. So for example, if if something doesn't go well, if there's a setback at work, he would automatically and really it's subcon, it's like subconscious. I mean, some of these, some of these are beliefs that come from childhood, some of them come from prior adult experiences. But the belief might be like, I stink at public speaking. Oh my gosh, or I I I stink at this. I'm bad at work. I'm like, I'm not good at this. I'm gonna get fired. And that automatic belief will cause consequences in terms of your behavior and just your demeanor and your emotions. And and usually it's pretty unhelpful. So arguing against those limiting beliefs is incredibly helpful. The um going back to our lawyer friends, like the issue spotting, like the the fact that you're seeing, you're like, oh, that's a limit, that's a limited belief. Like that, I'm not going automatically from like the bad event to like I am sad. There's something in between. And if you can disrupt that equation, it's actually pretty profound. Like the consequences change profoundly because you're not as um, you're not really catastrophizing, for example. So that's just one example of how being open to spotting that can really make a difference in your everyday life. And then kind of like over the course of your life, uh, it can make a big difference.

SPEAKER_03:

It's so interesting. So it's like rewiring your brain, rewiring the pathways. That's precisely what it is. When I went back to working after my traumatic brain injury, I started doing this thing where I would talk to myself. And I've actually shared this on the podcast very early on. I don't know if exactly what I said, but I started doing this thing where I would look in the mirror and just be like, you're a good lawyer, you're smart, you're healed, um, you're happy, you're healthy. And I had heard it on, I think, the Mel Robbins podcast of like speaking in the present rather than I'm going to be healed, I'm going to be in a year, I'm going to be. And I did notice that it started helping me pull out of some fear that I had of like when I went back, would I would I be able to process my work is very complicated. And would I be able to handle it? Would I be able to do, you know, I had a lot of trust and confidence I had to regain after what happened and what I went through. And so it was this funny thing of like I would do it in the car, I would do it in the bathroom, just like anywhere. And I truly believe it helped me.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I a thousand percent believe it helped you. Yeah. I think I think those um I mean it the fun the funny thing about positive psychology and honestly, like neuroplasticity, like it works. It just sounds so woo that people just don't buy it. And I heard someone, um, I heard a very well well respected positive psychologist actually uh say, you know, um, you know, ignore ignore all this at your own peril. It really works. I mean, these are scientifically backed, this is all empirical, empirical science with studies and you know, groups of people that they have researched, and it actually works. So you hear mantra and you're like, oh my gosh, like eye roll. And then you're like, that actually helped me in my life. Yeah. It works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I want to talk a little bit. I want to go back to the legal profession a little bit. Um, and I want to talk about positive psychology in the legal profession, but um, I'm gonna read some scary statistics from your book. Okay. So you you wrote Mindset Mastery for Lawyers, and I read it, and it was very good. Also short, loved that. Short, but a mini book. Yeah. So I part of the reason I want to like share these is because a lot of our listeners are not lawyers, and um, we allude to it quite a bit on here, given my life. But you wrote a 2023 ALM and Law.com Compass Mental Health Survey of the legal profession revealed that 71% of the 3,000 attorneys surveyed experienced regular anxiety, and roughly 38% dealt with symptoms of depression. When asked about specific indicators of mental health challenges, more than 50% of surveyed lawyers said they felt a sense of failure or self-doubt, lost emotion, felt increasingly cynical and negative, and had decreased satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. More than 60% said they felt overwhelmed, irritable, and exhausted, or struggled to concentrate. More than 76% of surveyed lawyers blamed their work environment for these problems, citing billiable hour pressures, the inability to disconnect and lack of sleep. But 49% of lawyers also reported feeling that mental health problems and substance abuse were at a crisis level in the legal profession up from about 44% in 2022. And I actually don't know what the current substance abuse stats are. Um they're very widely available. We've heard them all. Um and I I think there's a huge problem in the legal profession of mental health. I've known multiple attorneys who've committed suicide. It is not unusual for us to hear stories. And I just think I don't know how much people outside of the legal profession, I think they understand like it's a hard profession. We all joke about it, we know about it, but the actual statistics are terrifying. And when people ask me if they should go to law school, I generally say no. Not unless, one, you can do it debt-free. And two, you have a very, very clear goal of what you're going to do with it. Yeah. And three, if your identity is rooted in something solid. Yes. Because I just fear for what that can do, especially, frankly, to women. I agree. So I'm curious, I mean, I obviously I just I have a lot of thoughts on where it's all coming from. There's a lot of other stats, but how do you feel that your work and like positive psychology could help start to create some change in the legal profession?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, great question. Um, and it's interesting because when I when I I will speak at law firms and um will consult with law firm leadership periodically. Um I speak at law firms quite frequently. And no like those stats that you just recited, like they're not no one is phased by them anymore.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's the awful thing, right? Like everyone's like, yeah, if you have spent any time in the legal profession, you are not surprised in the least by this. Um I I am very quick to tell lawyers in particular, and especially when I'm speaking in front of a group, because of course you you don't want things to be taken the wrong way, and you know, you get a comment at the end. I'm very quick to say that positive psychology is by no means like a panacea, like, oh, you know, like just do perma and everything is gonna be great. That's that's not at all what I mean. Um, you know, if you have, well, I think everyone needs a therapist, like literally. I think the world would be a wonderful place if everyone had a therapist. Um, but if you are suffering from depression or anxiety, um you should seek therapy and you should seek help for substance abuse. Oh my gosh, a thousand percent. What I think is beautiful about positive psychology and what gives me hope and a lot of my clients a lot of hope is honestly the agency that it provides. Like the concept that you have the ability to impact your own fulfillment to me was like mind-blowing when I when I first learned about positive psychology. Um, I I was I was going through a particularly difficult time. Um, and I I think it was just just such a breath of fresh air to to learn, like, oh, like I I you're telling me that I can do these things, and it's it's really all within my control. Like I to a certain extent, like I can impact my own happiness um profoundly by doing certain things. Um, I mentioned this in the book, but there's a positive psychologist um named Sonia Lubermirski, and she wrote a book called The How of Happiness. And she researched, she basically measured happiness um over long periods of time with different different groups of people. And she came up with something called the um, I think it's a 40% principle or the 40% theory. And basically, what she came to understand was that if you look at a person and their and their measurable happiness, meaning the happiness that they are able to articulate, and you look at them over a long period of time, 50% of their of their happiness, of their contentment, their fulfillment is kind of a genetic base uh baseline. It's kind of a set point. So think about that. Like, you know, if if you and your family members all are, you know, at a they sh you share a similarity in terms of affect and fulfillment, that's maybe a thing. Okay. So a lot of it is heritable. 40% uh 10%, excuse me, 10% of measurable happiness are life circumstances. And that I I I'm always like, take a moment to just let that sink in for a moment. Because we put so much on life circumstances. So when I get that job, when I get married, when I get the uh the house, when I get to buy the house, when I get to buy the vacation home, right? It's it's like the hedonic treadmill of like always, you know, need needing more and more. Um, that's only 10% of these, this you know, wide swath of people they they were following for years, only 10% of their happiness was based on the life circumstances that they thought previously was gonna make them so happy, right? 40% if we're doing the math, right? 40% is left. And that's intentional activities. Okay. That's crazy to me. And that's where the hope for me comes in. Intentional activities are the way you think. Yes, that's at that's intentional. That's an activity. That's an intentional activity, how you think. Um, and then just habits and different things you can do, interventions, things you can do on your in your daily life to impact happiness. So 40% of your happiness you can impact by the way you think, and that's where mindsets come in. Um, and and the activities you do on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I think that's very encouraging to hear. Um, do you have any activities that you could share with our audience? Like very just like, hey, you could go forth, go forth tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, a very brief one, and it's like the best one. Um, and and positive psychology folks love it because it's easy and um it's the impact is next level. So it's focused on gratitude because gratitude is the one uh trait, attribute that a person has that can really impact them so profoundly. I mean, it's so profound that even your like cardiovascular and immune um system are will will see a response. Oh wow. It's that's how big a deal gratitude is. Again, this is um, you know, ignore this at your own peril. That then Barb Barb Frederickson said this on a Zoom call I was on a couple of days ago. Um, and she's this amazing positive psychologist. Ignore this at your own peril. Um I and I say this to the folks who are like a gratitude journal, so that sounds lame. Like, okay, well. Um, so this one particular activity is called What Went Well. And it is literally before you go to bed every night, write three things down in a journal. Three things that went well that day.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And these can be big things, these can be like I closed the deal, I bought a house, or it can be little things like my pumpkin spice latte was delicious. It was the weather was great, that kind of thing. And you do this um consistently over the course of a week or two weeks, and it's easy. You want to keep doing it, which is neat. Um, it can really impact your outlook. Um, I'll say it's hard and it's hard. Like on days when I'm having a bad day in a cole, I'm like, I don't know what this is not, this is dumb. This is straight up dumb. But it really is helpful to go through the day and be like, well, this day was a dumpster fire. And yet, you know, I fin I sent that email that I'd been waiting to send for like two weeks. That was that was, you know, one of the shining moments of my day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

What went well writing three things each night? Okay. I will I will commit to doing that. Do it. And I will report back to the audience. Should I do like two weeks? Do two weeks, two weeks. Okay. I will do it. Good. Um, what is something you're obsessing over lately? Um, I'm obsessed.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I am I'm in a I'm in a health mode. I'm like, I'm in, I'm focusing on health. So I have been obsessing over like functional health and sort of I don't know, vitamins and supplements. I'm also, Nicole, 45 and I'm in perimenopause. So I need all my supplements. Yep. And I so I'm in that stage of life life where this makes so much sense. Like I need all my supplements and I need, you know, th random things hurt. So like so I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna focus on my health. So um, you know, just just navigating like what I'm eating that perhaps is not like doing doing well for me.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I have a book for you offline now because I've already shared it many times. So that's what I'm obsessing over. Um that's understandable, yeah. Um, I am obsessing over how to not stress as much. I noticed it this week. Um I so when I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't fall asleep and I start cleaning. Oh no, it's a sign. And that happened Friday. So I was like, uh-oh. I have some ideas. So I'm like really trying to take an inventory of what my next two weeks look like and quiet, get quiet. Quiet. Exactly. The warning signs are going off. So we'll figure it out. Um, and do you have a recommendation for our audience?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I don't know if this is original, but I've been I have been watching The Gilded Age.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you watch Guild? I have not, but I've heard good things about it.

SPEAKER_00:

It's really good. Yeah. It's it's the first episode is slow and then you're just hooked. Okay. Um, and then I tried to get my husband into it and he was just not into it. So it's it has been my treadmill show where I don't walk and I watch it, and it's fantastic. And the outfits are just next level. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I think I heard it like um not Bridgerton for US, but the because right, it's in the US. Yes, right, about like Vanderbilt or something. No, sexy.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's not sexy. Okay. Downtown Abbey-esque. Yes, it's very downtown Abbey. That's how someone described it to me. Okay. Um it's it's but also like there's like a little bit of Bridgerton. It's again, it's not sexy, but it it is like there is um, there's there's romance and like, you know, mayhem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I I'll add it to my list. So my recommendation is more for our Nashville contingent. Um, I go to the Richland Farmers Market almost every week and Hidden Holler Farms, they are so good. I get my eggs from them, and I can't eat eggs that aren't local. And so I I love my eggs. The guy's super nice. He started recognizing me, and then they have really good like chicken breasts and everything. Wait, where is so where is it? Uh Richland, you know, do you know the Richland Farmers Market off of Charlotte Saturdays from 9 to noon? I wasn't getting super busy.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, no good to know.

SPEAKER_03:

Yep, so they're great. Someone had recommended it to me, and like there's always a long line, so I try to get there early. Oh my gosh, I love so I love the farmers market. I do too. Is I like it better in the spring or fall because it was really hot yesterday and you're just like standing in all these lines. The weather's not okay. No, it's it's what'd you say, 97?

SPEAKER_00:

It was yeah, it was like it was 90. Well, we did our Christmas card photos yesterday, which was insane. So we I I got my children dressed up in um like sweaters and like corduroy outfits. And oh, I'm sure they're literally not literally, but that was the vibe. It was like, okay, we're you know, it's Merry Christmas, and it was it was 92 degrees. Oh my gosh. Well, what are you looking forward to this week? Um, I I'm looking forward to a Juno event that we have on Friday. I'm going to. Oh, I love it. I'm so excited. Yeah. So we have um a speaker series coffee event on Friday morning. And my good friend um and Juno board member, uh, Nadine Zach, will be um speaking. And she is talking about leaving the corporate life and starting your own business and her ex yeah in that. It's it's pretty salient to many Juno members and her experience um doing that herself. And she left corporate HR and has launched her own HR company, and they are blowing it out of the water. I mean, she is, they are so they are just doing it really well. Cool. She'll have a lot to share.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm excited about it. Yeah, unfortunately for our listeners, that will be passed. So look for other Juno events in the future. Yes. Um, I'm really excited because I'm going to a cabin next weekend with my friend, and we're going down by South Cumberland State Park so we can go hiking and everything. Oh, I love that. And I love that park. So it's gonna be very quiet. Good nature. Exactly. Quiet nature waterfalls. I'm excited. So um, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00:

So let's see. So you're mindsetcoach.com or JunoWomen.com. And then I'm also on Instagram, and it's Jackie.cascerano. And my very long Italian last name, thanks to my husband, is C-A-S-C-A-R-A-N-O. So Jackie.cascerano. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

We'll make sure to link it. Get sense if you don't have to go Googling that. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much. This is so fun. Great. I always want it to be fun. So um, and thank you guys for listening. Please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'll see you next week. The end. Thanks for listening to my crunchy zen era. Please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. This podcast is produced by me, Nicole Swisher, and my good friends Summer Harcup and Liz Coulter. Editing is by Drew Harrison Media, and recording is done by Logos Creative in Nashville, Tennessee. Thanks for hanging out. We'll be back next week.

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Nicole Swisher

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