My Crunchy Zen Era
Welcome to My Crunchy Zen Era — we're not exactly sure what it means, but we're figuring it out.
It started when I asked my friends: How do you create a life you love? Then it turned into a podcast full of a little fun, a little humor, and a whole lot of curiosity. Each week we dive into a fresh topic with a guest, exploring everything from everyday joys to life’s bigger questions. Whether we’re laughing, learning, or just letting things unfold, this show is your weekly dose of lighthearted inspiration.
Hosted by Nicole Swisher.
My Crunchy Zen Era
Finding Calm Through Connection: Horse-Assisted Wellness with Dr. Ashley Dial
Can a horse take the place of your therapist? Well, perhaps we shouldn't go that far since we're a big fan of therapy over here... In this episode, Nicole is joined by Dr. Ashley Dial who shares how horses serve as powerful therapeutic partners in her coaching practice. Plot twist: Nicole worked with Dr. Dial and shares a bit about her firsthand experience working with the horses. Today they discuss:
- Depth psychology and developing a relationship with your unconscious psyche to guide healing.
- Burnout and its relationship with trauma cycles.
- How horses mirror human's emotions.
- The horse-human bond and the healing that can result.
- Nicole's favorite horse, Gator, and his struggle with confidence.
- Converted bus life on the "Cowgirl Caravan".
- The healing power of female friendships and why they get a bad rep.
Whether you're seeking greater confidence or simply horse-curious, this conversation offers a glimpse into a fascinating approach to wellness that combines ancient wisdom with modern psychology. Subscribe now and join this exploration of what it means to live a happy life in an increasingly complicated world.
Host: Nicole Swisher
Guest: Dr. Ashley Dial - antlerandash.com
Recommendations:
- Get back to basics: sleep hygiene, diet, and movement.
- The Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer
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Yeah, it sounds good Like she prescribed um algae for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean that and it actually I've been Taking it. I've been taking it. It has helped, it has helped.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's been weird. I want to give her a shot, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what's something crunchier than that you've done lately?
Speaker 1:Oh, I, um, I mean, it's kind of hard to pick Like. I feel like every day I do lots of crunchy things. I would probably say, though, with this weather being so beautiful, I like to get out on my pool deck. I have, you saw, like my little cowboy pool situation, yes, situation, and, um, I take a little psilocybin microdose and do a hot yoga series that sounds amazing, it's incredible.
Speaker 2:It's like the best therapy ever is it like? Do you do it in the morning or like middle of the day or evening?
Speaker 1:usually like middle of the day, late afternoon, and I like for it to be like super hot. So I'm getting like all the detox. You know, yeah, sweating going on Instead of going to hot yoga.
Speaker 2:You can just be out in hot yoga. Yeah, yeah, I've been trying to get it in walks between one and two o'clock because I heard that like it helps you with your sleep cycle. Okay, one and two o'clock because I heard that like it helps you with your sleep cycle to cause it's like, yeah, get out in the morning and then at the like the highest point of the day and then in the evening so that your body like syncs with how you're supposed to be sleeping. That makes sense. I've been sleeping well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I. Well, when I, when I get out and do my my yoga, I definitely sleep way better that night. It totally noticeable. Yeah, I. The other thing I did that's super crunchy and zen was I, and this was like recently, I was so proud of myself. Like every once in a while I'll be inspired to do some sort of creative, like crafting art project and I made a um, it's like a little fairy garden, oh display yeah for my ongoing feather collection nice, it's pretty hippie.
Speaker 1:It's got like little velvet mushrooms in it and and. I'm just like constantly picking up feathers on on the property. And they needed a place to live.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, on that note, welcome to my crunchy zen era. This is a weekly podcast filled with a little fun, a little humor and a whole lot of curiosity. I'm your host, nicole Swisher, and today my guest is Dr Ashley Dial Welcome, thank you. A little bit about Ashley. She's the owner of Antler and Ash, a wellness-centered retreat and farm in Cullioca, tennessee. She's a wellness and empowerment coach with a PhD in depth psychology. She works with clients to help them reclaim their sense of purpose and belonging, and often incorporates the healing power of horses into her coaching sessions.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Did I get that about?
Speaker 1:right, perfect, great. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Speaker 2:Some of that is stuff you said yourself on your website sounds like you've done your research, okay, yeah, if you could relive any memory, what would it be and why?
Speaker 1:ah, um, I think my first date with my husband Cole. Oh yeah, Tell me about it. Yeah, so we've been. When was it? It was, like I don't know, 10 years ago, which is wild. So I was living in Florida and I was living on my converted bus that I called the Cowgirl caravan. I don't know if I've ever told you about this.
Speaker 2:No, I need to know so much more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I lived on a bus for like a year, did you?
Speaker 2:convert it or did you buy it? I had a lot of help.
Speaker 1:My dad like long story short. My dad essentially got me the bus and I got permission to put it out on the horse property that I was on in Florida, which was like 100 acres out in the country, and so I put this bus out there.
Speaker 1:I had a lot of friends come and help me convert it and turning it turn it into like a tiny home Right, and turn it into like a tiny home, right, cool. So, anyway, I was living on my bus at the time, being about as crunchy as you can get, and Cole and I met online and he was going to come and pick me up and we were going to go to dinner. But he came and picked me up and I had some boarders who owned a horse on the property that needed some help with their horse, and so, instead of going to dinner, cole and I go to help with this horse situation.
Speaker 1:And him, being from a horse family, actually knew his way around a horse and knew what he was doing, and so we end up like and I'm like dressed to go to dinner yeah, right and we end up like doing horse training together and we had just met um, and then that just turned into like the best night of my life and we just stayed on the property and paddled the little paddle boat out on the lake and totally fell in love yeah, I feel like the moment he could work with horses yeah, you're like found him. Yeah, it's like this is gonna work, yeah that's such a cool first date it was an. It was an amazing first date, yeah that's cool.
Speaker 2:All right, I've got my little grab bag of questions oh gosh, my super random ones that I don't remember what I put into it. So it makes it exciting for me too. What is a weird or obscure talent you have, but hardly anyone knows about it?
Speaker 1:oh gosh weird or obscure talent that hardly anyone knows, I think the first thing that comes to mind. This is so ridiculous, but I'm a really good arm wrestler.
Speaker 2:Is there a technique or are you just really strong?
Speaker 1:I think I'm just overly confident and I've been known to like have a couple drinks and then like challenge a full-grown man to an arm wrestling competition. That's amazing. I haven't done it in a long time. But, um, yeah, that's without overthinking it. That's the first thing that comes to mind. That's perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty darn good at foosball, but I never have the chance to whip that out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm actually really good at that too. I recently went on vacation with my family and there was a foosball table in the cabin that we were staying at and I totally hustled my brother and sister. Foosball table in the cabin that we were staying at and I, like, totally hustled my brother and sister foosball.
Speaker 2:That's a good one too. Yeah, we grew up with it, and I feel like I spent hours. I don't know why it's like pretty, like, do you have a strategy? Do I have a strategy? I mean, I don't know. You kind of like lull them a little bit, yeah, and then you just whip it yeah, you gotta like spin it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, so I do it with.
Speaker 2:Like, our rules are, you can't spin oh, so you have to like set the rules up front because some people do that some people don't. So I've got like this wrist movement. Okay so. But if you do get the spin involved, it's like okay, this is a whole other.
Speaker 1:I would be lost without the spin Like that's definitely.
Speaker 2:So that's why I set the rules. No spinning, and then I will take you.
Speaker 1:So you'd probably beat me then if there was no spinning involved. I think so, but you'd beat me in arm wrestling.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, so I really want to hear about more about your coaching and I feel like full disclosure to our audience. Like I did, your coaching program Loved it. Would love to just hang with the horses all the time yeah, but can you tell me about your coaching practice?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mostly work with women. When I first started, I worked with just everyone and anyone, but I think I've really found my niche working with women solely, and some of the typical things that I work with are women that are going through major life transitions. That I work with are women that are like going through major life transitions. Um, and I do also um invite in trauma work when necessary. Um, so when I work with clients, it's most of it is in person. So you come out to my farm in Cullioca, tennessee. We have a beautiful 93 acres out there. We have 10 horses on the property right now. So just coming out for a session on the farm in and of itself is such a beautiful container to tend to yourself and to whatever it is that you're, you know, trying to process or work through. So just being out out in nature like I'm a big believer in getting people outside, um, in engaging with my horses, they're such a an amazing therapeutic partner and that they are super calming your nervous system.
Speaker 1:Um, it's a very connective experience and they can also be really amazing mirrors for what's going on with my clients internally, emotionally, and my sessions can look like really different depending on what you're wanting to work on, how you're showing up that day, what's going on with the horses, like they always have their own agenda.
Speaker 1:So a lot of my coaching is very intuitive and just sensing, like what you're needing in that hour, you know, like what's're needing in that hour you know, like what's coming up for you, how can we best get some movement through it, like find a place to shift or find a different perspective for you? And sometimes that looks like working with the horses, sometimes it looks like taking a walk through the property, sometimes I just sit and have a talk session with my clients. So, yeah, I think that's just like a little flavor of my coaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I think my sessions we definitely did some just grooming and talking. It's very relaxing.
Speaker 2:Some riding, yeah, but not all the time and I was a little nervous to get back on a horse because, um, I I've alluded to it a few times on the podcast, but I've never outright said that I had a traumatic brain injury. Yes, and most likely it was originally from being bucked off a horse, but then it came back because COVID attacked my brain and so when I came to you I was looking for I was calling it horse therapy, yeah, whatever you want to call it, but my sister-in-law is going through the, um, the whole program to. That's right.
Speaker 2:Uh, do therapeutic work with horses right um, and so she's got three horses now, and so that's what got me looking and that's how I found you, and it truly is like each time I would come down to the farm on the way back, it was almost like I was so calm and relaxed that I had to intentionally be like don't fall asleep on the drive.
Speaker 2:And keep that calm, Keep that calm especially driving back into Nashville I wanted to see you is because of the nervous system side of it is that I had healed significantly but the doctors kept saying my body was just stressed and my nervous system was out of whack and to be around horses can calm that all down, and that is exactly what I experienced a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and I think you know what you're speaking to, like your experiences is um like so much of of what I, you know, try to do with every client is like give you that embodied experience of what your baseline can look like and can can feel like in your body. Yeah, so that you know. You know, you know when you're starting, when those stress levels are starting to rise, you know that you're not at that baseline anymore and then you can consciously, you know, make some other decisions, you know, grab some other resources, some other tools that you've um developed, developed for yourself, and try to get back to that, that baseline yeah, and you?
Speaker 2:it can so quickly get out of whack that you don't realize it until you're drawn into a space where your body calms down, right of like each time I go home and I'm around my family where my mom is just like let me cook for you, let me do whatever, and they're so generous and kind to me that.
Speaker 2:I think I just relax in a way that's hard to do when you are self-sufficient on your own and are like I got to get the groceries I need to work. And I did read one of your blog posts about burnout and how it like creeps up on you, yeah, and I'd be curious to hear more about that if you're willing to share oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:I mean, I feel like I'm still like learning so much about my own burnout cycle and I still get caught up in it. But something I recently realized for myself like I had this idea that burnout only happened if I was working too much. So I had this idea that, like, if I was, you know, seeing too many clients, like trying to do too many retreats, too many workshops, like literally overloading my schedule, like that's how my burnout cycle was happening, and so the obvious solution would be to not put so much on my schedule, right? And so I did that and I was still burning out and I was like what is going on? Like I'm hardly working and I'm still finding myself in this burnout cycle? Um, so it's not as like clear-cut and straightforward as I think we would like for it to be, so that we can like find a solution.
Speaker 1:Like you, you know, you think your burnout is, is just like your job, you know. So if I find a different job or if I quit my job which sometimes that is definitely necessary um, you know, then I just won't feel this way anymore. I won't be burnt out anymore and exhausted, um, but it's feel this way anymore, I won't be burnt out anymore and exhausted, um, but it's. It's more linked to your trauma loop, like your trauma cycle and, um, how that gets activated. So it like, for me personally, it doesn't take too much for that to be activated. And then the next thing I know, even though I'm not, you know, seeing too many clients or working too much for that to be activated. And then the next thing I know, even though I'm not, you know, seeing too many clients or working too much. I'm just like giving my energy out to like anything else that I that I can find to keep myself busy with. And then I'm just like in that cycle all over again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it can even be friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or like something totally benign.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, or like doing stand up.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed it a lot and I did over 100 shows and then I just started dreading the shows I would go to, even though it's like, oh, it's so fun to watch people laugh and I'm like I can't believe I'm making them laugh. But then I started like dreading it and I was like I can't stop, but I but I can, and so I, when I did it was this relief, even though it was something that brought me so much joy yeah it was the right decision to do it right. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm just, yeah, I'm finding for myself like I need a lot. Uh, I need a lot more like space and time to continue to also like heal from years of burnout yeah and that's the other thing I think about.
Speaker 1:Burnout is like we think that like as soon as we like stop that cycle, we won't feel that way anymore. But if you think about like years and years of like all of that stress and what that's done to your body and to your psyche and just to, like you know, dredging out those neural pathways, it's a there's a long recovery process involved yeah, it's not like you would break a bone and be like, right, oh, I stopped doing that activity, it'll be fine the next day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your body had like we internalize so much. Yes, how did you have you read the book burnout by emily nagatsuki? I have so, have I? Yes, I like when you're saying like stress cycles. I'm like these sound like words.
Speaker 1:Familiar words. It's a good book.
Speaker 2:I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1:It is a good book, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating really. I think the main thing is like we get taking work, for example of like going to work and it's like as a lawyer, it's like gotta do this and this and this and this and you build up, and traditionally or in the past it would have been like there's a lion run, you exert, you're done, but now we're not having that like completing the stress cycle of right running. I don't think I'm saying this?
Speaker 1:no, you're saying it. Yeah, perfectly. Um, yeah, you're not completing the cycle. There's no release.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the threat is still looming because you have to go back into work the next day right, yeah, and some of the small things that I think a lot of people know, will work out or something, or go for a walk or you know, have something that like completes that yeah, so so something somatic, like something embodied, yeah, yeah exactly so. Depth psychology yes. Can you tell me what that is?
Speaker 1:Like knowing this question is coming.
Speaker 2:I kind of dread it, oh no.
Speaker 1:I've been asked this question, of course, like a million times, and I never know what I'm going to say. So I Googled it, I told you, you told me.
Speaker 2:I don't think I can repeat it. Well, it's. It's. It's about like soul work, yes, and what we embody. I'm slightly using words you've already used today and getting to like the core of the issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfectly said, sure. And getting to like the core of the issues, yeah, yeah, yeah, perfectly said, sure, I. No, I think it's just like um like, if I really have to boil it down, I mean because you could spend like hours talking about what depth psychology is and the history of it, um, but I think when you really boil it down, it's essentially like turning towards your unconscious psyche, so turning towards your unconscious material, um seeing that there's a lot of value in your unconscious psyche and um developing a relationship with that part of yourself and allowing that to inform and guide you. I'm just going to like stop there because I'll start to say things.
Speaker 2:I listen to this podcaster, dr John Deloney, and he often talks about trauma in childhood and how things that they're going through. Now it's like that child like reacting and controlling and having that same like fearful response or something, and one thing he recommends is to write that child a letter telling them like you're safe, you're doing a great job, I've got you is that kind of yeah sure so that's like you know what you're speaking to.
Speaker 1:Is um specifically like inner child work, right, which I think a lot of people are probably familiar with, um, and that's probably a pretty good. Yeah, that's a great example, I think, of how to understand what depth psychology is, because your inner child is mostly unconscious, right?
Speaker 1:Like we're not walking around having a conversation with our inner child every day triggers that childhood trauma. The inner child, that unconscious part of you, that unhealed childhood trauma, responds essentially, you know, reacts, and that pattern continues until you are able to have a dialogue with that unconscious part of yourself, with that unconscious part of yourself that needs some reassurance, right, that needs to know that it's safe and that that trauma is no longer happening, right?
Speaker 1:And what led you to depth um, I think, probably my relationship with my dad. Um, he, my dad, is like the ultimate hippie of all hippies and he was always very interested and involved in his own dream life and that was very curious to me. And as I got older, you know, we would have conversations about our dreams and he introduced me to Carl Jung, who is, you know, like the biggest influencer of depth psychology. And I started reading Carl Jung probably I read one of his books, I think, when I was in high school, and like none of it made any sense to me and it was way over my head, but I knew that there was something there that was like very intriguing to me.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of like how, you know, the ball started rolling for me and then fast forward. I got my undergrad in sociology, um, and then I tried to like work in the real world and hated it and I was like maybe I'll go back to school, um, and you know, in considering what I might be interested in studying, I did a lot of, like you know, looking around at different graduate schools and I found Pacifica Graduate Institute, depth. Psychology is not like a common thing that people study, like a common thing that people study. So anyway, they're out in California, so I got my graduate degree in depth psychology with them. It was amazing.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it any differently.
Speaker 1:Cool and how did horses come into play here? Even a crazier? That's a pretty crazy story. So so I started going to graduate school for depth psychology. I thought I was just going, you know, just for the PhD in in-depth psychology, and I was about halfway through my second year of studies and I had nothing to do with horses. Like I didn't grow up with horses. I wasn't currently involved with horses like at all. I was horse obsessed when I was a little girl. But that's pretty common, right? Oh, so common. My niece, crazy.
Speaker 2:Horse crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was me when I was a little girl, but nothing to do with my adult life. And so halfway through my second year of studies I just had this like drop of horse dreams, and it just started one night and it was like every single night I was having these super intense, super vivid dreams about horses, and it was just relentless and it went on for several months like literally every single night oh my gosh and I was like this is wild, you know like what is going on.
Speaker 1:And finally I was like, okay, and I was like this is wild, you know, like what is going on. And finally I was like, okay, and I was busy, like you know, doing school and life and working, but these dreams just wouldn't shut up or leave me alone. So I was like, okay, I need to engage with this in some other way. It's obviously calling for my attention. And so I went and found this barn where this woman let me, you know, muck the stalls in exchange for teaching me about her horses. And from there you know everything just like expanded and exploded and all of my studies in depth psychology started to revolve around these experiences that I was now having with real horses in my waking life and what was still happening in my dream life. So all of my doctoral research was about the you know benefits of the horse-human relationship from a depth psychological perspective.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of science and research yes, about horses and how they can help us. Can you tell me more about that? I, to the extent you can remember, yeah, like I'm more in the experiential side of things.
Speaker 1:I kind of like all of that. Um, you know, all of of the science and all of the studies that are coming out are fascinating. But I think when you live with horses and you do the type of work that I do with clients and horses and you're seeing it happening, you know, in the moment you see these studies and you're like, well, of course, you know, like we already knew this. Yeah, it's great to have you know the statistics and the studies and stuff to back it up, um, but also this is something that's like ancient you know, one thing I I find very interesting is how they can feel your energy, and I first kind of talked to my sister-in-law, katie who will probably be a recurring theme on this, hey.
Speaker 1:Katie.
Speaker 2:But she shared with me that her instructor had had her go into the pasture with the horses and they just kind of ignored her and then she had to come out and then told her to breathe like through her nose, like counting, and then step in and then all the horses like came up to her right and they can feel that.
Speaker 2:so whenever I approach horses which I actually do on a regular basis, which may be weird, but I do um I do breathing exercises, like what we did um during one of my coaching sessions most of them yeah, and it is interesting to see how they respond to me and I've been in groups of people where I'm doing that and like the people commented, like all the horses, like you and I'm like, well it's, they're sensing what I'm doing and I'm not telling you what.
Speaker 1:I'm doing yeah, totally fascinating. Yeah, so like such a subtle energy level that they're participating in with you yeah, yeah, and the the way that they feel us like.
Speaker 2:If you're anxious, if you're scared, um, they start to respond in kind or get a little jumpy too, right, yeah, and that's why they're such great therapeutic partners.
Speaker 1:Um, because if you're trying to get this, you know 1200 pound animal to cooperate with you um, and you're super anxious, they're going to respond in kind and not be so cooperative. So then you have to take a pause and consider okay, what do I need to do, like, how do I need to shift my energy in order to gain cooperation here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one thing that comes to mind is when we were riding I don't remember which horse it was, but we were riding and we were talking about a difficult situation.
Speaker 1:I was going through with a friend and I felt the horse tensing under me and then I realized I was tensing, and so we took a moment and everything just calmed and we kept going, and it's just so fascinating how quickly they start to respond yeah, um, one of the recent studies that I came across was um how horses like co-regulate their heartbeats in a herd and um and I think they've known this for a long time Like when it comes to horse and rider, once the rider's heartbeat starts to accelerate, their horse's heartbeat starts to accelerate immediately. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, um, yeah, that's just you know, like scientific proof of what you know, like you've experienced in, the difference between approaching a horse not being aware of your breath versus approaching like being more in your body and like intentionally trying to calm your system the other experience I really enjoyed was with Gator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so helping him gain confidence, because he wasn't confident to leave his herd yeah so you told me he wasn't rideable because he would get too scared, and so you had me encourage him to get further and further away from the herd, and I'm just curious to explore that again, of like, why did helping him build confidence help me?
Speaker 1:too, and why was there?
Speaker 2:that connection between us.
Speaker 1:I well, I mean just to paint the the picture for anyone listening. Also, gator is a massive horse he's, I love it. He's this huge black horse. I mean, his neck is like this thick, yeah, but he's so sweet.
Speaker 1:And he is a very gentle soul, but you are not going to get him to cooperate with you unless he wants to, because he's also figured out that he is big enough. You know, if he gets too anxious anxious he'll just tear away from you and run back to the herd. So you have to like really ground into yourself and really make an effort to connect with him like every step of the way. You're like checking in together and he's doing the same with you, right, like he's checking in with you and asking like is she confident? Like does she know what she's doing here? Because if I sense that she's not, like I'm out of here. So doing that exercise really gives you the embodied experience of what it feels like to lead this massive beast outside of his comfort zone, which requires you to like fully embody as much confidence as you can muster.
Speaker 1:Right you can muster right and what a helpful like experience to have. Because we can. We can talk about like okay, I'm going to go out through my this week and like I'm going to be more confident in this situation, you know, at work or this relationship, or I'm going to speak up for myself, but when you're actually participating in that and using your body and your breath, participating in that and using your body and your breath, and you're having to do it with another being, you know, you're like really carving out that, that new neural pathway for yourself, instead of just talking about like trying to be more confident yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:yeah, that does, and so who was your first horse?
Speaker 1:well, unfortunately you didn't get to meet him. He, he passed um two, two-ish years ago now. Saltos was his name, cute. His full name was salto de fe, which means leap of faith, and he was, uh, andalusian pasifino cross. He was gorgeous. He was what you, um people call their heart horse. Like he was my soul. He was the inspiration for like everything that I've done in my work. Um, he just meant everything to me. He was gorgeous, he was. He was uh white, with like a million they call it flea bit like a million tiny little black spots all over him um, and when he moved he just looked like he was like in a parade, everywhere he was going, uh, but he was.
Speaker 1:He was great with kids, like as long as I had him on a lunge line or contained, but he loved to run like he loved to haul, and I think my husband got on him like a couple times and was like I'm good, he was like a freight train. But, um, he still comes to visit me sometimes in my dreams and I miss him dearly.
Speaker 2:It's, it's hard to lose an animal. They're, they're just a part of you and yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I literally feel like a piece of my soul left when, when he did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so with your herd? Um, this is actually from Katie, my sister. Um, do you have specific training techniques with your horses as healers?
Speaker 1:Training techniques with them as far as like getting them, training them to be like therapy horses?
Speaker 1:Um, oh yeah, that's a good question. Um, first and foremost, like they do have to be super safe and trustworthy to be around. Um, so they have to be um training techniques, though, specifically, I mean, I I take definitely like a natural horsemanship approach, so I'm never um trying to force cooperation from them. Um, I like to do a lot of like super basic groundwork stuff, like lunging with them, just leading with them, getting them to respect my space. Um, I think, probably most importantly, like in a therapy session, they still need to understand that the relationship between them and me is that I'm the leader, like I am the head mayor Anytime I step into the pasture with them or the barn or a therapy session, and that's what keeps the container safe and that just looks like. As far as training goes, like every interaction that I have with them is like me embodying that head mare, like leadership role, and it's, I mean, training, nothing crazy complicated, yeah, yeah and so how would you describe like coaching versus therapy?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're not a therapist, no, even though I call you a therapist. Yeah, I mean, it feels like it, but sure.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is kind of like a, a mixture yeah right.
Speaker 1:But I think, like over the years and I, you know, I think I've been doing this for like 14 plus years now I have come to more of a coaching approach, because, you know, clients come because they want change.
Speaker 1:They want to see real change in their life and I want to help them get there change in their life and I want to help them get there. So coaching is more about um, you know, like figuring out what that looks like, like what is your ideal? You know, where do you want to be, how do you want to feel, what do you want to be doing, who do you want to be with three months, six months, a year from now. And then let's break it down and like actually strategize and like start to make some real life changes that are really small and incremental, but like build up and give you serious momentum to actually get to this new place that you want to be, versus therapeutic work, which is still involved in what I do, but like I am not going to spend an hour with you just listening to you and being like well, what does that feel like? And that sucks, and I'll see you next week.
Speaker 2:Like hopefully it gets better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I really want to like strategize with you about how we get to the next step, the next phase.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, that is definitely why I was interested. Because, I have a therapist I've been seeing for a few years. I trust her and I I think it's good for everyone to have a therapist whether you're actually actively going or you know if something happens, I don't have to do that work again of finding someone I trust Totally.
Speaker 1:That can be very hard.
Speaker 2:But I was at a point where I was like I really need somebody who's going to be intentionally encouraging me and challenging me and having some accountability which I don't find so much in therapy Right, I feel like that's a little bit of a different thing. So it wasn't like I was coming in and you're like you should do this and whatever. It was more like bringing out my ideas and almost collaboratively, and then revisiting it the next time and checking it, following up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that. Yeah, thank you for saying that. The accountability pieces is huge, right, yeah, yeah, and I mean yes, I also have my own therapist. I love her, she's amazing, it's super helpful.
Speaker 2:But yeah, coaching is just kind of a different approach, and so how long did you say you've been doing coaching? Like 14 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like 14-ish years, almost 15.
Speaker 2:Has it always taken this form or has your business evolved?
Speaker 1:It's definitely evolved Like I have, in the last several years, taken a more explicit coaching approach, um, just after years of like figuring out what's most helpful for people.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, my like I said when I started like I worked with like anyone and everyone, like all different issues. So my practice has definitely, my work has definitely evolved, and now I'm also getting more into we're building a. So we're building a cabin out on our property Awesome. I don't know if I told you that I'm calling it the bunk house, so it's got like eight bunks in it and I'm starting to get into doing more, just like really fun stuff, like camp outs for women.
Speaker 1:That's cool, yeah. So, like one of the last ones I did well, I do a cowgirl camp out where you, you come out and we like have a trail ride and we have like a steak dinner around the campfire and we go on like a night hike and then in the mornings maybe we go for another ride. We go to the barn feed the horses have some breakfast hang out at the campfire.
Speaker 2:Just like a fun time yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is therapeutic? In itself, just getting people outside and just being with the horses and meeting other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I would have forgotten to say something about this. But I noticed a lot of that. You use the word playful and fun a lot on your website and I was just I don't know. I was just curious where that was coming from, Because I mean I think being playful and having fun in your adult years is super important and often lost.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah. I just think we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously.
Speaker 2:Done.
Speaker 1:It's definitely something like I am guilty of getting trapped in. It's like taking things too seriously, getting caught in your head, right. So if you can like find more creative, playful fun outlets for yourself, like the healing kind of, just happens naturally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Without so much hard work, like it doesn't have to be so serious.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be so serious, it doesn't have to be so hard yeah, I find I I don't feel like I laugh as much as I like I was laughing so hard about something the other day and I I don't remember what it was, but it just felt like this huge release and I was like why don't I laugh more? Yeah, do I not find things funny?
Speaker 1:like I don't know. I thought I did funny people in my life anyway, yeah, yeah, it's definitely not me yeah, like just you know, like I'll find myself sitting down to watch something on tv and I'm like I need a good laugh. Like I haven't really had a good laugh in a while, and so finding something to make me laugh is like yeah one of the most therapeutic things you can do for yourself is just to have a good laugh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you have done a retreat in the past with Roxanne. I think the Sisters Beloved.
Speaker 1:I have done some work with Roxanne. Um the retreats. I've worked with several different women Okay. Um, the last retreat that I did on my property um was with a good friend of mine who was also a coach. Um, christie shots and she's uh lives in Florida, um, and so I'm hoping to get those back up and running, okay, when the cabin is done and I can coordinate with her and we do these like three night into like therapeutically intensive retreats.
Speaker 2:Um, that's essentially like five years worth of therapy packed into a weekend okay yeah, so those are very focused um, and there's a, there's a lot involved in those and and part of that is like female friendships right and totally how important those really are for women. I think a lot of times women get a bad rap for having these very toxic female friendships, when a very healthy I mean. I think it's essential to who we are and to build community and to be healthy and have fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a huge element of the retreats, like the camp, just the fun little camp outs that I do. The women that come always have so much anxiety about being around other women. Yeah, Like for an extended period of time and doing deep. You know work and just how much vulnerability is involved in that. But inevitably what happens is, you know, when we all come together and people start to kind of let their guards down, it's just like the it's the most powerful medicine that they didn't know that they needed to have that female connection. Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and on that I'm going to bring up a new segment that we might make recurring. We'll see. I'm calling it something like women killing it. So my good friend, summer Harkup she's a producer on this show and she also helps me produce Cheaper Than Therapy. Okay, and so I wanted to share something really cool that happened to her.
Speaker 2:She is a defense lawyer at Wickersmith in Nashville and they posted about this on their LinkedIn. She recently obtained a defense verdict in a construction case in which she was defending a general contractor against a homeowner. The allegations involved breach of contract, negligent construction, violations of the Tennessee Consumer Protection Act and of the Tennessee Contractors Licensing Act. She got a partial summary judgment and a directed verdict on others, meaning they went her way by the judge, and then, after three days of trial, the jury returned a unanimous defense verdict for the remaining claims. So her um, her client, won on everything, and this was in Memphis, which is a notoriously difficult venue in these cases. So I wanted to give a shout out to Summer and how amazing that is and she was working so hard and so, yeah, awesome, we'll just say she's amazing.
Speaker 1:Oh, way to go Summer. Yeah, Very cool.
Speaker 2:So what are you obsessing over lately?
Speaker 1:Oh gosh what am I obsessing over lately? Um a lot of things I contend to be somewhat obsessive uh, me too.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm really asking this.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, oh my gosh, there's so many things um, I think, like you know, being real, uh, with that question, I think I am very obsessed right now with um trying to be a mom yeah yeah yeah, because you're, do you mind?
Speaker 1:no. I'm going through IVF yeah yeah, I'm going through IVF, have been for a good while now. Um, my husband and I have been trying to build a family and, you know, get pregnant for several years. It's been a really tough journey and I think you know if you're familiar, you've been in this journey. On any level. It's easy to obsess over. Yeah, so anything like fertility, ivf related, I'm all over it.
Speaker 2:I've heard. It's very challenging and just all consuming because you're having to monitor everything and you're learning things about your body you never knew but maybe you should have learned in high school or something Totally yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing that I feel like I believe a lot more women are going through that than I think it's becoming more common to talk about it, right, um, but I appreciate you sharing that because I feel like it can give encouragement to other women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not something that's, um, talked about a lot. I think there's some sort of like taboo around it, like it's a personal thing you should keep to yourself, um, but I think if I came on your podcast and didn't mention that that was a massive part of my life right now, yeah, it would be a bit disingenuous.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, well, I at least, and probably others, will be praying for you and your thank you the family. There's a uh. Have you ever heard of Mari Llewellyn? No, I don't think so. Um, I guess she I don't know what I would call her she's definitely got some influence.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say influencer, because she does more than that.
Speaker 2:Um, I listened to her podcast, the pursuit of wellness, and in the last six to seven months she has stopped really interviewing people because she's been going through IVF and she's shared her journey and I've learned a lot. I think it was very helpful to. That's how I know anything about it and it's it's really interesting to hear how all-consuming and how difficult yeah, it really is, I will look her up. So definitely look her up.
Speaker 1:I've been obsessing over my continuous glucose monitor? How often are you checking? Is it on your phone?
Speaker 2:It's on my phone. My glucose was very low so I got this and it's been a little too fascinating. But what's really interesting is I was dropping so much that I almost thought I should go to the ER, oh my gosh. And then I did a 24-hour fast, which I was hesitant about because I was like well, if you're dropping, are you gonna pass out? But after the 24-hour fast which was totally fine it's changed. Like I, my glucose is not dropping as often. So you think that gave you kind of like a reset? I think so.
Speaker 2:Cause 24 hours is about the fast length you need for your gut to rebuild and heal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I had this theory that cause I'm glucose intolerant, like all these things, that I had damaged my gut and I wasn't absorbing nutrients. So yeah, I am gonna go see a doctor. It's just that part of the issue is I couldn't get in until like September. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So it's like, anyway, nashville doctors so yeah, how often are you like looking at this on your phone?
Speaker 2:I mean more than once an hour.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why, like I, I like tell people, like I was telling you about the um aura ring, yeah, like I tell other people to get it, but I know if I got it it I would probably get too obsessed yeah, I think that this I will not be having this in when I go to scotland, because I'm like we don't need to be like obsessed, you'll survive yeah and I think part of it was like every time it would drop below 70 it would just like beep, even if your phone's on silent and so I was always watching because I was like, oh, I don't want it to go beeping.
Speaker 2:And it beeped in the middle of a client meeting. I was like I'm so sorry, it's my glucose and the client's like what?
Speaker 1:Well, I thought about getting one of those too, just to like pay attention to what makes it spike you know, like in your diet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been interesting for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's see. Do you have any recommendations for our listeners?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a pretty general question. Any recommendations, Um, I think. Well, speaking of diet, like anytime I'm working with a client, like I go to, like super foundational things, you know, and and talk about like exercise, diet, sleep. So like exercise, diet, sleep. So like just go back to your basics. Yeah, like I, it's something I'm also obsessing over right now is my own sleep.
Speaker 1:It's like my number one priority. So like clean up your sleep hygiene right um clean up your diet and get some movement in your life. It's like the most basic advice ever, but it can totally change your world.
Speaker 2:I feel like often we try to hack things so much when it's like that's good, but are you doing these things first, Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we want a shortcut.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't even have to be a massive shift, but little baby steps towards, towards something. Yeah, totally yeah. My recommendation this week is a book series that I really like um I was thinking about this because I'm like, I've recommended non-fiction, so let's go with fiction. It's called the lunar chronicle series by marissa meyer and they're retellings of like fairy tale, like Cinderella, oh cool.
Speaker 2:And what am I thinking of? Rapunzel and stuff like that, oh yeah, and it's like five books, four or five books, but they're really well written, okay, and I always love a good retelling, but these are great. I'm still I know that somebody bought like the movie rights and so I'm always just like waiting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is it coming out?
Speaker 2:But they're very. They're a fun read and very well written Awesome. Highly recommend them. I love a good book recommendation, yeah. So what are you looking forward to this week?
Speaker 1:What am I looking forward to this week? I'm looking forward to getting our cabin wrapped up. Are you that close? It's very close. Cool, it's so close. I'm hoping it'll be ready for the fall and it will be open. I'll have it listed on Airbnb.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:So you can come and stay and, like, hike the property, hang out with the horses. So I'm not just, it's not just for my campouts and retreats. You can just come and stay also. So yeah, I'm looking forward to getting that done this week.
Speaker 2:So I know your property, I know other people don't. Is it going to be like could the horses just like come up to the cabin?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so cool yeah.
Speaker 1:So, as you know and yeah, people listening don't know um our 10 horse horses are heard is free roaming on the entire 93 acres, which includes the cabin site.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you can like be hanging out on the porch, on the cabin, and like, here comes the horses to graze in the we call it the twin pastures is where it is. So, yeah, it's a pretty magical little spot okay good to know. Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinking I'll be looking on Airbnb and if they're not there, you just like go for a short little hike and, you know, find them yeah, they'll show up, they'll find.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do. I'm looking forward to like tomorrow just having like a very quiet morning. I don't have anything until like one o'clock and I'm just like this is, I love those days Can you actually sleep in? Yeah, what's weird is that I don't sleep in very much on the weekends like or if I'm working from home, I just very naturally wake up around 6 30 when I have to go to the office you're like dead asleep, yeah, and I don't know if that's like because of the commute or just like the rush of like okay, we got to get up, we got to go.
Speaker 2:But it's just so funny to me. I'm like why can I not wake up? It's like the one time you really feel like you could sleep forever, yeah yeah, yeah, it's an ongoing problem. Um so, ashley, where is the best place for people to find you?
Speaker 1:um on my website currently um I'm. I've been kind of taking a social media break, so if you just go to antlerandashcom and fill out my little contact form, you show up in my email and I respond to you as a real person and start a conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being here. This was great. This was really great. Thank you, Um, and thank you guys for listening. Um, please subscribe to my YouTube channel and follow me wherever you listen to your podcast. We'll see you next week. The end. Thanks for listening to my crunchy zen era. Please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. This podcast is produced by me, Nicole Swisher, and my good friends Summer Harkup and Liz C Golder. Editing is by Drew Harrison Media and recording is done by Lagos Creative in Nashville, Tennessee. Thanks for hanging out. We'll be back next week.
