My Crunchy Zen Era
Welcome to My Crunchy Zen Era — we're not exactly sure what it means, but we're figuring it out.
It started when I asked my friends: How do you create a life you love? Then it turned into a podcast full of a little fun, a little humor, and a whole lot of curiosity. Each week we dive into a fresh topic with a guest, exploring everything from everyday joys to life’s bigger questions. Whether we’re laughing, learning, or just letting things unfold, this show is your weekly dose of lighthearted inspiration.
Hosted by Nicole Swisher.
My Crunchy Zen Era
Quitting Your Job, Writing a Romance Novel, and Enneagram Struggles with Sara Holifield
I had this fear that I would die without having written a book because I was too scared.... Sara Holifield aka Avalon Griffin admits as she shares about quitting her job to write a paranormal romance novel. Join Sara and Nicole as they discuss:
- Quitting jobs to reset your life
- Sara's books: Unbound by Shadows and To Dwell in Shadows
- Romance novels as a tool for healing and empowerment
- Practical writing advice
- The Enneagram
- Decluttering cords and the stress of throwing things away
Whether you're struggling with a creative project, considering a career pivot, or simply curious about paranormal romance featuring smut-reading demons, this episode offers both practical guidance and permission to pursue what haunts you—before it's too late.
Subscribe now and join this exploration of what it means to live a happy life in an increasingly complicated world.
Host: Nicole Swisher
Guest: Sara Holifield aka Avalon Griffin
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Welcome to my Crunchy Zen Era. I'm your host, Nicole Swisher. My guest today is Sarah Holifield. She writes as Avalon Griffin.
Speaker 2:Welcome, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Same. What's something crunchy or zen that you've done lately?
Speaker 2:I recently got one of those spiky acupressure mats. I had one once. I love it. Like they had it at Aldi they had it at Aldi on sale and I just saw so many people like I'm an Aldi Facebook group, like fans of Aldi. People loved it and I was like, well, it's like nine bucks, I'm just going to get it. And it's real spicy at first when you lay down, but then it's like something happens and you just go into the zone and I love it.
Speaker 1:It's great. Did yours have like the pillow part too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has the pillow. So at first I did it like with a t-shirt on. Yeah, I had to work up to like bare skin. But you're doing a bare skin. Yeah, how long have you had this? A couple months, wow. I only do it for like 10 minutes, but it's like, I don't know, something happens where it's. I don't know if it's like your endorphins kick in, but it's like you, it's real spicy at first, like I said, but then it kind of gets to like this zen zone, a crunchy zen zone, yeah, like after I don't know about like two or three minutes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wonder if it's kind of like when you first start doing like saunas or like cold plunges yeah, it could be like that. Yeah, it could be yeah, I ordered one from Amazon. This was years ago and I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I ever used it. You need to try it and I've been on a purge and I just brought it together. Oh no, I'm sad, I would have tried it oh, shoot, okay, but I think I like put my hands on it.
Speaker 2:I was like no, don't do that. Yeah, no, I think it's like it's like the whole, like your body weight, like it kind of distributes the spikiness of it a little bit, okay, and what it looks like for our listeners, viewers.
Speaker 1:It's like a mat that you lay out on the ground and it has spikes, little little plastic spikes, spikes, yeah. And then there's like a head, that uh pillow that would go like at your neck right, and it's supposed to hit the um pressure, not pressure points, what is it called?
Speaker 2:it's like the acupressure points. I don't know if it really does that, but yeah, just the, just the spikiness of it, and it also kind of draws all your attention to your back. That's like on fire for a little bit. So yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:I could see it like because I have done acupuncture and I love acupuncture. Okay, I just find it hard to keep up with. Yeah, sure, that is very crunchy, yeah, so if you could relive any memory, what would it be and why?
Speaker 2:Okay, I think so years ago, probably 2023. So I'm a huge fan of the Golden Girls and in 2023, they had their first Golden Girl fan convention in Chicago that I went to with my best friend. It was two days and it had workshops that had, like, blanche's sister spoke and Estelle Getty's assistant and Bea Arthur's assistant, but at the end they had all of us in this big auditorium. It was probably 3,000 people and we all sang thank you for being a friend together and then the woman, the original singer of the of the theme song, came out and sang and it was just this amazing, stupid moment of like all these, all the girls and gays here to see the golden girl convention, we're just all singing confetti drop from the ceiling. It was just just so much fun.
Speaker 1:That sounds great. I feel like those memories where you're in a group that it's like it's this, it's just this thing that you love and you just feel that energy and you, it's just so fun to be like hokey and kitschy and just yeah, there's, there are no stakes here, like it's right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:We just embrace it, like what we have in common. Is we like this show from the 80s? Yeah and yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:I like that. I don't. I haven't gone to like a lot of conventions about things that I really like, um, but I am going to a Bigfoot convention in a few weeks.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, there will definitely. That will be very interesting. Yes, absolutely, I find it fascinating. I can't wait to hear about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, um, all right, so I do a little grab bag. Okay, I feel like I should get like a pretty bag and I just haven't okay, but I'm gonna do this. Let's see what we got oh wait, okay, I've got to start putting these aside.
Speaker 2:I've done that one twice, so we're not doing that one.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm getting better at this. I think, oh, perfect for you. What's the last book, movie or TV show you hated? Did you finish it? Oh my gosh, I said perfect for you before I finished reading that sentence.
Speaker 2:I thought it was like you loved.
Speaker 1:I was like oh.
Speaker 2:I hate it. I tried to watch the new Sex and the City and Just Like that that has been so many commercials for that I can't do it. Is it a show or a movie? It's a show, it is, and Samantha's not in it, so it's just Carrie, miranda and Charlotte. I watched the first season. I tried to watch the second season and it's just bad. I don't know. They've just changed the characters. They have silly storylines. It's not good, it's sad yeah, I uh.
Speaker 1:So Sex and the City was a show that I wasn't supposed to watch, but it was on reruns when I was probably high school or middle school and my parents finally let me have a tv in my room. I think it was black and white oh no okay, and I would secretly like watch sex in the city, so I have like fond memories of that yeah but then I, I don't know. I was like are they, is this like a whole show that they're redoing? And so I'm disappointed to hear that yeah, but I have not had the urge to watch it so good to know.
Speaker 1:Um, all right. So, sarah, yes, we met, because I took a romance novel writing class at the porch in Nashville and you were my teacher.
Speaker 1:I was, and it was very fun and as, as you were talking about, like the golden girls conference I was thinking about, I feel like you talked about going to some conferences- and part of what I loved about the class is that everyone there was very like passionate about writing and I just feel like you don't get around a lot of people who have something like this or I don't. Maybe other people do have a shared passion. It's just like so fun and inspiring to see that yeah. Yeah, so you wrote a book.
Speaker 2:I did yes.
Speaker 1:So I called it.
Speaker 2:So I write romance under the pen name Avalon Griffin, and I wrote the paranormal romance unbound by shadows, and I've just finished the sequel to dwell in shadows, um, which comes out next week next week being July.
Speaker 1:July 17th, 17th, okay, this is going to come out August. I think. I said like 7th or something. Great, that'll be perfect, it'll be out, yeah, cool. And so when did you decide to write a book, to start writing?
Speaker 2:So I think I've always I've always been interested in writing. I you know, at school people tell me I'm a great writer, you know I'm so creative, that sort of thing. But I think I never took it seriously because I thought it was be too hard and I also thought, well, you can't really make money, so who cares, why should you do it? And then it just kind of got to the point where I just felt like I had to do something with writing. It just kind of wouldn't leave me alone. So I started doing creative nonfiction and then I was also reading a lot of romance. I've always read romance, like since high school I had a Fabio birthday cake in high school.
Speaker 1:I saw that on your Like in the 90s yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been a longtime romance reader and I just had this. I was reading a lot of historical fiction and the kind of the paranormal romance that was that used to be at would be just kind of vampires, maybe a little bit of witches, maybe some ghosts once in a while, and I was really interested in demons. So I had this idea of like kind of a fish out of water, like a woman goes to another dimension, meets a demon there who woman goes to another dimension, meets a demon there who's also from another dimension, and I just felt like I need to write this story or it's going to keep bugging me. So I just kind of started, real simple, like I didn't know what I was doing at all. I went to a conference in Atlanta for romance doing at all. I went to a conference in Atlanta for romance just a romance convention with readers and writers and I took a romance writers boot camp and that's what kind of just set me on this path of like okay, I'm doing this, this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 2:But I still felt a little bit like I was only kind of doing it just a few hours every month. I was kind of messing around a little bit and I kind of felt like if I really want to write this book, I need to raise the stakes for myself. So I was in a job I didn't like and I kind of thought I'm just gonna live the dream and quit my job to write a book. And so I can't like I still can't believe I did that right now, like that's what I did. So I quit my job, I took about a year off just just working on the book and then I started picking up. I have a background in nonprofit, so then I started picking up grant proposal writing work. So I was doing kind of halfway fiction writing and then grant writing and then that's kind of brought me to that's what, pretty much what I do today.
Speaker 1:And so the job that you quit, like what were you doing?
Speaker 2:So it was working in event planning, so it was like planning events for rich people.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So it's very different. I don't know if I knew that, because I know now you do grant writing which. I'm like well, that's writing. It goes along with what you're doing so like when you were in, say like middle school or high school. What job or what did you picture yourself doing at this time?
Speaker 2:When I was a kid, I wanted to be a vet.
Speaker 1:Oh, totally.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, because I love cats.
Speaker 1:A cat-specific vet you know, oh, only cats, only cats. Yeah, I feel like that's. I feel like my niece would do that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I think I don't. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. My degree is in sociology and women's studies, so I wanted to do something kind of with women, with empowerment, kind of that sort of thing. So really I got into the nonprofit field. I worked kind of in the victim services field. I worked in health care, you details and kind of little, figuring out lots of little things, kind of keeping track of a lot of little things. But it wasn't really what I wanted. It was sort of one of those things that like, once you, you know you graduate college, you kind of take whatever first job you can get.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, and then you know it kind of.
Speaker 2:Then you know you don't like that job, so you take this other job and it's not really that great of a job. And I just kind of went in this cycle and then it kind of realized, like in my mid to late 30s, like is this it? Like is this, this is my?
Speaker 1:this is being an adult, like yeah, and I don't want to do this so, like when you started having like this idea for the book, is that about the timing of it mid to late 30s?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so it was, um, so I quit my job. I want to say I was 39, okay, and I think when I, when I in our class, you know, when we worked together, I had everybody go around the room and talk about you know what they wanted to do, I feel like everybody there was like I want to write a book before I'm 40. So that was a pretty common theme. Did you, when did you?
Speaker 1:finish your book.
Speaker 2:I was. I fit, well it's. I finished it. I finished writing it in 2020 and then it was published in 2023, so there was a lot of in between of like editing. I tried to query it to get traditionally published and then, when I decided to go the self-publishing route the indie publishing all the work involved in that took some time as well so did you have a goal of finishing it by the time you're 40?
Speaker 2:I just wanted to do it. I didn't really have a really set goal, like I wasn't. I wasn't disappointed when I turned 40 and it wasn't done. I just I felt good that I was on this path. Um, I did. I felt like it took me a lot longer than I thought. Like because I think that was another thing too is, what was keeping me from writing the book is I thought, well, I have this job. If I didn't have this job, then I could just have all this time, all right, eight hours a day. And that didn't happen.
Speaker 1:So, with quitting your job, how did you support yourself for a year?
Speaker 2:if you do you mind me asking, no, I uh my husband was working a job that paid very well at the time, which was great, and then we also had a lot of savings. So because I feel like would.
Speaker 1:Would you tell aspiring authors to do the same? No, okay, I don't think I want to clarify.
Speaker 2:No, not at all no, this is not writing advice. Quit your job, and you know that's the only way you can write a book. Not at all. That was just. It was just something for me. Like I said, I felt I had to raise the stakes, I had to make it a little bit scary for me. I had to get rid of all my excuses for not writing and was part of quitting your job.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. I don't want to put words in your mouth but, but I'm going to try, okay. So it wasn't just about writing the book, was it? Was it also about the fact that you were in this job, that you're like, how did I get here and I need a reset, or what? Yeah, a reset, that's a great way of putting it. Yeah, it was it was a reset.
Speaker 2:That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, it was. It was a reset. It was a not just kind of reacting to whatever job I could get. It was more being in the driver's seat for my life and my career and figuring out what I want to do, where I want to go and how I want to do it. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I can relate to that because I've I English major yeah, great life, yeah, yeah and starting like my first job it was like I, it was 2009 and I was like I just need a job. And then I went to law school because I was like, well, now what do I do? And so I've been on this path of like being in like big law firms, and then, when I moved to Nashville, I was at a firm for four weeks or four weeks that would have been even better four months solid four months and I quit without a job and it was just not a fit and it felt like a reset.
Speaker 1:And then I moved into working at these smaller firms that are a much better fit. But it was again. I wouldn't recommend that for anyone, but for me it was very empowering. Yeah Of like, yeah. For me it was also like God's got me, like I'm going to be fine, but just having that like pull the plug, this is not in alignment with my values or what, where I wanted to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, and it's great and it's like it's, it's scary and it and it's. You know, I felt like I had people in my life. They're like, what are you doing? But I, just for me, I felt like I'm just gonna jump. And then it turned out really good, Like it, and there was light at the end of the tunnel and it turned out okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so one of my goals for this year was to even just start a podcast. And I feel like you know, you, it's like what is the goal? Is it to finish a book at a certain time, or is it to just start the process? And so it's like is it for me, like I don't know, having a certain amount of listeners, or?
Speaker 2:is it?
Speaker 1:just the fact that I started this thing that I've wanted to for years Did you feel that of like you. It was just a big thing to start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was scared, I had this fear that I would die without having written a book because I was too scared die without having written a book because I was too scared and I felt like I didn't want. I didn't want to live with that regret and that feeling of like I could have written a book, only I didn't try hard enough, I didn't have enough courage, I didn't, um, really put myself to it. So that was, it was more for me, just doing it. And then, even when it was done, even when the book was done, I always thought I'd had this moment of like I did it and I never really did because there was so many other steps to do, there were so many other things to learn. And it wasn't until now that I've completed the second book, that I sort of had that moment that I didn't just write one book, I wrote two books.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, did you like the process of it? I?
Speaker 2:did. I would say this is I don't say this to discourage aspiring writers, but writing the book is the easiest part. Really it's the rest of it, the marketing, the figuring out how to connect with your readers. It's, you know, doing your social media Like that's, that's the hard part.
Speaker 1:I've always found writing hard. It is hard, it is yeah. One thing you said in the class that I liked a lot was that people assume I'm going to butcher this.
Speaker 2:So you that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 1:People assume that you just know how to write and you just write, but like with everything, you learn that too. Please rephrase that. Yeah, that's okay. People assume that you just know how to write and you just write, but like with everything you learn that too, please rephrase that yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2:I feel like writing is one of the things that people kind of feel like well, I read a lot, so I should be able to write a lot and I don't need to take any classes or read any books about writing. I should just be able to sit down and just write a bestseller and that any books about writing. I should just be able to sit down and just write a bestseller. And it's not. That's not how it works. I think one of the one of the things that stopped me or discouraged me a lot when I first started writing is I was writing something and then I would compare that to a published work, a published book, and be like well, my writing is terrible, like I really suck Without realizing like that finished book had been through who knows how many drafts, how many editors, how many tweaks, how many beta readers. Like there's a whole big process to get to that finished product. And so with writing, it's not just you kind of sit down and do it. It's a lot of steps, it's a lot of drafts and it's different for every person too. That's kind of why it's really a learn by doing process that you just have to start doing it and start doing a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that say, well, don't you know, you just write it all out really rough and then you don't edit as you go. And I tried to do that and I got into a huge mess of plots that I didn't want to follow. And so the other, you know, because kind of the other side of the coin is like edit as you go, like you can do that. There are some people that love to do sprints, like they love to set a timer I'm going to write for 20 minutes and they just go. That doesn't work for me. I'm more of a time person, like I'm more of a. I want to. I'm sorry. More of a, like a, I want to finish this scene by today, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Do you so? Do you set yourself like word count goals, or is it really just like? This is the scene that I'm writing.
Speaker 2:It's more the scene for me, but there's lots of people that that do word count goals yeah.
Speaker 1:And did, did you create an outline for either of your?
Speaker 2:books, no. So in kind of the writing world, people put themselves sort of in two camps plotters and pantsers. So plotters are more people that kind of know exactly what's going to happen. They have a great outline and then pantsers fly by the seat of their pants, kind of just write as they go. In my life I'm very much a plotter. I'm very organized, detail oriented, all that. But in my writing I'm more of a pantser, which is harder for me, because it's like sometimes there'll be scenes that I know that'll happen but I don't know what happens in between.
Speaker 1:Do you think part of that is because you're a planner?
Speaker 2:Maybe. Yeah, that's a good question, yeah that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe you just kind of, so that you can just like let it go and so yeah yeah, and then because I found when I planned my writing I overplanned and then I was like cheating myself out of that. There's a there's sometimes, when you're writing, there's a really kind of exciting thing that happens when it's like you have these loose ends that you don't know how to fix and you just get this lightning bolt aha moment like oh my gosh, this is how that happened. And it's like when I was plotting so much I wasn't getting as many of those. And then when I just kind of let it go and just kind of let it, you know see what happened when I sat down to write.
Speaker 1:Then things fell into place more like I wanted and so your book takes place in another dimension, but they start in Tennessee. Yes, and the town? What's the name of the town where they go?
Speaker 2:So it starts in. So it's about a woman from Nashville who goes on a road trip with her sister to Rugby, tennessee, which is this funny little town. Had you been there I had and did that kind of inspire some of that I did yeah, I was looking for it because I knew I wanted the human character to kind of fall into a portal somewhere in Tennessee and I wanted some place that felt a little odd a little. The veil is thin.
Speaker 1:What brought you there?
Speaker 2:A friend of mine had recommended it. A friend of mine went there and stayed there. So Rugby is this funny little town like a Victorian utopia, is kind of where it was. It was what it was built to be and it still has a lot of the same Victorian buildings. But my husband and I went there. We went in the winter, when it was cold, when it was closed, like it's only really open for the summer, and we went there and it was so eerily quiet.
Speaker 1:Weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How far away is that?
Speaker 2:It's maybe like three hours hours. It's kind of like it's in kind of Scott County, kind of like north of like Crossville, okay I know where that. Yeah, I was like there's a Scott County yeah, yeah, I hope that's the right county. I haven't said like I haven't smirched rugby's name. Yeah, yeah that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So there's probably hardly anyone that actually lives. Yeah, there's not any there's.
Speaker 2:I think there's less than 100 people that live there, but in the kind of the surrounding area there's, there's some woods that lead down to a place called the gentleman swimming hole. Oh, it's back in the day, just gentlemen only is there a lady? Swimming hole not that I know of but there is a witch's cave down there.
Speaker 1:So when I found that, I was like that's my portal.
Speaker 2:So in that, so in the book I have, the main character goes on a road trip with her sister. They go on a hike in rugby, the sister kind of goes off to the gentleman's swimming hole to take pictures, and the sis the main character name is selene falls through this portal, ends up in a matriarchal society full of ruled by seven queens who are also cryptids, and then falls in love with a demon I think you need to clarify what cryptids, sure, so cryptids are kind of urban mythology um bigfoot is a cryptid Mothman.
Speaker 2:Jersey Devil In Tennessee. The Wampus cat is kind of our resident cryptid. It's just a big scary cat like a mountain lion kind of cougar that has big yellow eyes and you know the legend is like if you hear it scream you'll die.
Speaker 1:Interesting. That clarifies part of your book for me.
Speaker 2:I was like what is that? Yeah?
Speaker 1:um, I didn't realize they were all called like cryptids.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, so that's kind of like the umbrella term for all of them. So so in my book, the, there's this dimension where all of these seven queens rule and they come into our world, which I call Gaia in the book, but they appear differently. They kind of appear close to what their sacred animal is. So the queen in the dimension in my book it's called Aurelia. She's like a cat queen. She has kind of a cat body, like a thundercat kind of thing, and then when she comes into our world we kind of see her. She changes form as the wampus cat.
Speaker 1:Okay, so and did you um? Are any of your characters based off of people you know?
Speaker 2:they're mostly not. I would say celine, my main is an eldest daughter, which I'm an eldest daughter, and there's a thing called eldest daughter syndrome, where eldest daughters kind of feel responsible for their family, kind of as the peacekeeper, kind of making sure everybody's kind of okay. So that part of Selene's personality definitely came from me. And then other characters I think they're just kind of a lot of just different like pop culture, things that I liked, things kind of you know brought together. There's not really a specific character, I would say that's based on someone that I know, just kind of a mesh of lots of different people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's a good idea yeah, yeah yeah, you don't want to be like, and this is your character flaw right, right, yeah, I wrote a whole character about you, yeah. I'm not passive-aggressive at all yeah and then the second book is that about her sister.
Speaker 2:I feel so that'll be the third book, so the second book is a continuation of the two main characters journey. So the thing about romance is romance always has to end on a happily ever after or happily for now. So in the first book the female main character and the demon, they, you know, have their happily ever after and then they kind of say let's go to the underworld where the demon is from. So the second book is kind of what happens to them in the underworld. And I'm breaking a major romance rule with this book because it ends on a cliffhanger. It doesn't end on a happily ever after. So it's kind of like the Empire Strikes Back, you know book in the series. And then the third book will be about the sister and kind of about what happens after that cliffhanger Interesting.
Speaker 1:So what drew you to romance in the first place?
Speaker 2:So the thing thing I love about romance is it's about when. It's usually about women's stories. It's usually about they're usually written for women, they're usually written by women and they're usually about women getting everything they want. So I feel like it's the most kind of empowering genre of fiction. It's also since it has to end with a happily ever after it's women succeeding. I think that was part of the reason why I got back into romance. Between high school and you know kind of my 30s, I was working in the kind of victim services field. I was hearing a lot of horrific stories about terrible things that were happening to women and I just wanted an escape where women won, where everything good things happened to women, women and they overcame odds, you know, or they overcame their own weaknesses to find happiness yeah, I get that like I.
Speaker 1:I've kind of I'm not as much into like romance, but I'll like some rom-com type romance sure, yeah it was like super light-hearted, whatever. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, though and. I have to say there's there are parts of romance books that when you listen on audio it's like this is interesting oh yeah, I, yes, yes, agreed yeah.
Speaker 1:I was. I was like I'm not gonna listen to this, while my roommates yeah, yeah, but I did play him part of a romance book and he was like this is fascinating. Anyway, my sister though. She would always get romance novels from the library when we were in high school, and sometimes I'd read them and I'd be like I'm not supposed to be reading this, yeah, yeah. How have you found like the community around romance novels?
Speaker 2:We have a great community here in Nashville. It's a fairly new community. I feel like kind of years ago a lot of bookstores in the Nashville area didn't carry romance. I feel like sometimes people can be a little bit snooty about romance. There's kind of this stereotype that it's trashy, it's not really a book. Yeah, that it's trashy.
Speaker 1:you know that really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not real literature, that sort of thing. But I think with, uh, you know, there's a series of books called a court of thorns and roses.
Speaker 1:I'm familiar okay good, I haven't read them yet, but I think Mariana on our first episode might haveAR. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when that got famous, I think it was kind of TikTok that that brought it, you know kind of Definitely see that, yeah, Kind of brought it. And then fourth wing, which is, you know, which came out a couple of years ago, which is like fantasy romance.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so they're two different. Why was that? Yeah, so ACOTAR is like fairies and royal courts.
Speaker 1:And then Fourth Wing is dragons. Different, yes, different yeah.
Speaker 2:So when those got popular, I feel like a lot of especially younger women, like kind of women in their 20s, were like romance. This is great, I love this, and so that's what's kind of brought it more mainstream, which is incredible. And then here in Nashville just recently we've gotten several romance only book trucks, um that just yeah, like trucks, like like a trailer, that is like also a bookstore, that they go around to different events, um which we never had that.
Speaker 1:I'd never like. What kind of events are they going to?
Speaker 2:they just like will park up someplace and you can just come and shop and find a book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've never seen these.
Speaker 2:It's really cool, yeah. So all that's going on, and then I run a romance writers meetup through the porch. That's just kind of started recently. That's just for you know. We just get together every other month and sometimes we have like a specific topic that we talk about, or sometimes we just write together. Sometimes it's nice to just have someone just to write with them. When you're a writer and you don't know a lot of other writers, it's hard for people that aren't writers to kind of understand the struggle and kind of understand what your life is like as a writer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think my friends and I. This is a while ago I did the Nana Rhymo challenge which is like right, is it 50,000? Words in November, yep, so I had some friends that we used to do like write-alongs and stuff okay so that was always fun because it's like you're working, but you can take a moment yeah, whatever, yeah um the. That writing never saw the light of day, which well.
Speaker 1:I think okay yeah, like I feel like I don't know if I'll ever put my writing out there. It's a lot, it's like for me and it's just like a way to express myself, but it doesn't need to go anywhere and. I think that's what.
Speaker 2:That's sufficient for me yeah, what I get out of it, that's yeah, I like it, that's totally okay yeah, absolutely so, um, okay, uh, what are you doing differently with your second book?
Speaker 1:like that you maybe learned from your first book and you're like yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's a great question. So with my first book I felt like when it got hard, I did a lot. I looked a lot of out like external sources, like well, this is hard, maybe I need to buy a new writing book or a new keyboard or a new desk chair or take a class, something like that, something, anything to just push through the hard stuff. And with this book I've kind of realized, like it's just your butt in the seat, that's the secret to it. It's not anything external like all that stuff can help. But to really get it done, it's putting in the hours of doing it, it's finding time during the day, it's not waiting to. Oh, I kind of feel like I'm a little inspired. I'll write today. It's kind of setting a schedule. Like I'm a little inspired, I'll write today. It's kind of setting a schedule. I'm going to write, you know, one hour a day or even just 10 minutes a day, just something consistent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and did you experience writer's block at any point? Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. What did you do to combat that?
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of different things I tried. One thing that I like to do is to write a journal entry as my character. That kind of helps me focus in on what's happening. What are they feeling, what are they hoping for, what are they wanting to happen? I'll do that. Sometimes I'll just skip ahead. I'm not the type of writer that starts at page one and just writes until the end. Sometimes I'm like, okay, I know, I want this scene to happen towards the end of the book. I'm just going to write that now and then I'll connect the rest up later.
Speaker 1:That's a good idea, because it's like if you're just stuck on this one thing you're just going to keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you might as well get some other work done, and it may be garbage.
Speaker 1:You may not even use that scene, but sometimes just writing, just getting your head in a different mindset in a different place can help, and so you ended up doing the self publishing route. Uh huh, I did. Can you tell me more about how you ended up getting there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I did so. When you try to get traditionally published it's called querying, so it's, you know, kind of sending your work out to agents and you know publishers. And I did that for a while and it was right before the kind of the ACOTAR fourth wing thing hit. So my timing wasn't the best. I got told a lot that fantasy. I got told fantasy romance wasn't a thing. I got told paranormal romance wasn't a thing. I got told paranormal romance is not really popular anymore, like that happened in twilight times and now it's over.
Speaker 1:I was trying to think I'm like wait, when did that happen?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so kind of around then so I got kind of told that and I I felt like, no, this, I know there's a market for this, I know people want to read this. So I kind of felt like I'm not waiting for them, for the publishers to get it, I'm just gonna do it myself. So that's kind of how. So when you're an indie author, you do everything yourself. You do all your marketing, you upload your book to Amazon and then Amazon it. If someone orders a paperback copy and sends it to you, you do all your. You know your social media, all that kind of stuff which is hard, is a lot of work. But then also you get more of the money that you make goes to you rather than a publisher.
Speaker 1:Were you, I mean, was social media marketing like a challenge that you had to learn? Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a real, a real challenge for me. I mean, was social media marketing like a challenge that you had to learn?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was a real challenge for me. I mean one thing that like when I first started I did a lot of marketing just like it's a book about a sexy demon and it's fun. I did a lot of stuff just about like the external plot line. But it wasn't until I changed kind of my style and I said you know, this is a book about a woman with eldest daughter syndrome. That's when it hit. Like that's when it got a lot more popular. It's like when people could see themselves in a character and wanted to read about a character. That was that was more successful for me.
Speaker 1:Who, would you say, your typical reader is?
Speaker 2:I would say definitely somebody over 30. That was kind of another thing that I realized. I didn't really even think anything about it. But my, you know, my main character is 30. And there's I would kind of put that in my marketing as well like a 30 year old, you know, main character with eldest daughter syndrome. That falls for a smut reading demon um and reading. Yeah, he loves smut um but yeah, because a lot, because there's a lot of fantasy romance where the main character's 19 yeah, I have an issue with that yeah, like I've always felt I don't know.
Speaker 1:Twilight I, I read twilight I enjoyed reading twilight. I was probably that age about but like I mean, there's like a lot of stalkerish tendencies in that book and she's so young and suddenly she's becoming like immortal forever and ever with this guy who is actually like a hundred years older right right, I'm sorry, I have an issue with that whole concept of like, but that is not what we hear about. Yeah, but yeah. So I'm like I feel like someone in their 30s still wouldn't want to be immortal but it's more yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I feel like my ideal reader would be a woman in her 30s, um, maybe an oldest daughter doesn't have to be someone that maybe kind of struggles with a lot of people pleasing tendencies, which is what kind of what my main character kind of gets over, um, and then someone who likes a hero that's not toxic but will also shocking he beat somebody up for you, like, yeah, torture your ex in the underworld if he has to okay, I don't want to forget to ask you this because I feel like I'm very interested Do you ever feel awkward knowing that family and friends are reading a romance book that you wrote with like sex scenes and stuff that you wrote?
Speaker 2:100% yes.
Speaker 1:How do you handle that?
Speaker 2:It's awful it's, it's I don't know it's. I think I'm more worried about it than they are. I mean, they know that's part of the deal with writing romance, that's just how it goes. But it just feels like embarrassing and just it just feels. It just feels really weird and it's been hard for me to deal with that Cause it's like I'm a sex positive feminist. You know, it's like I. I think this is great, but it's just just knowing. Like, yeah, the people in my life are reading this and it's tough, but you got to push through it. I mean, that's what one of the things I think I said in this class is like when you're writing spicy scenes, don't think about your grandma reading this oh gosh Like just put it out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we don't want to think about our grandma. No, you also talked about, like the Enneagram and how you use that for like motivation. I find the Enneagram very interesting, so can you tell me more about that? Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I use. So I yeah, I love the Enneagram too and I use it for characters, so I kind of figure, so it kind of gives me like a blueprint of what this character's, what their fears, what their hopes are, what their motivations are. So sometimes when I'm writing a character I'll know right away like, oh, you know, my main, my demon character, he's a four, he's very, he's a tortured, you know, artist kind of that's kind of personality. But then with other characters where I'm not sure, sometimes I will just take a test, an Enneagram test, as them like kind of pick the answers that I think my character will pick. And I've been surprised sometimes, like I'm sure that they're one number, but then when I get the results back it's like oh no, they're actually a six or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which the Enneagram is. I think it's interesting because it it is a personality test. It's about like motivations and why someone's doing something. Um, but I think, for in real life, it's like you don't want to be, like it's an excuse or whatever, but I do think it could be really helpful of like oh, I don't think this way, Cause I'm not that, but how do I get?
Speaker 2:this character to be thinking this way. Yeah, and it helps. I think it helps me be consistent with their reactions. So I'm not kind of messing up. You know that I kind of forget like, well, this isn't really their, their character wouldn't react this way. But it's like I can kind of stay like oh, a six would react this way, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought I think I'm remembering this right that your main character identifies as an well, she. I'm using Enneagram. Yeah, she's a nine.
Speaker 2:She's a nine yeah, so my female main character is a nine, so she's very much kind of a people pleaser, kind of um. You know she doesn't like conflict. She doesn't, you know, wants to avoid any kind of tension yeah and then my main character is a vengeance demon who kind of gets really mad and really full of rage when people are kind of doing things they're not supposed to. So they kind of clash with him kind of going over the top with his confrontation and rage and then, she kind of needs to learn to kind of stand up for herself and fight for herself.
Speaker 1:Do you mind if I ask what you identify?
Speaker 2:as Sure, I'm a one, you're a one, yeah, so I'm very.
Speaker 1:Can you remind me what that is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one is uh, we're very hard on ourselves. We want things to be done correctly, we want things to be done, um, in the right way. We're very efficient and kind of like we like rules, but only if they make sense. So we get get really mad, like when people don't return their cart at the grocery store, like that sort of thing really sets us off yeah, yeah, what are? What are you? What's your? Do you know what your enneagram is?
Speaker 1:a nine oh, a nine. Oh, okay, okay, you aired all my dirty. Yeah, I did I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does that? Does that ring true for you all?
Speaker 1:that it does, I've definitely struggled with, like the people-pleasing um conflict like I can. So I wing eight, okay, which when I first took the Enneagram test, there was something going on in my life where it came out as an eight and I was like this I don't think this is right yeah um, but I'm I'm gonna say I had a relationship that was with an Enneagram four a guy that identified as a four, and I remember being in your class and be like, oh god, this is so accurate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, but I've definitely struggled with speaking up for myself in relationships, so I did identify with how you're yeah, well see, I'm a one wing nine oh, so that?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, so I get that. I totally get when you're writing, because that was kind of I was wondering how did it feel writing from that perspective?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean it was easy because it was kind of like I know how this feels, I know how this, how this goes um yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to do like a whole episode on Enneagram and I was really into it a few years ago and I'd have to kind of like brush up on it but it's, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tool, but it's not like an excuse or yeah, yeah, whatever you can't say like well, I'm always late because I'm a seven, like that's not, that's not cool. Yeah like yeah, we're not friends right, yeah, I am not late, yeah yeah, so what would you?
Speaker 1:any advice that you would give to somebody who's like I have always wanted to write a book, but it feels like harder I start and I can't finish, yep.
Speaker 2:So my kind of my go-to advice and I feel like it sounds kind of cliche like just start, but do. Just start, but don't be afraid to write bad, just write garbage to start with. Write as terribly as you want, don't use complete sentences, break all the grammar rules, just get it out and then you can go back and make it better. That's the thing that I think holds a lot of people back is they feel like even with and I was like this too like I spent weeks thinking about the first line of my book because that you know your first line has all this, you know it needs to grab people and it needs to do this, and it was like I didn't do anything else but that.
Speaker 2:So just start writing terribly and also build a consistent practice. Like you don't have to write. You know there's like advice, like write every day, you don't have to do that. But I do think it's good if you can carve out 10 minutes every day to just think about your book. Just, maybe you're writing, maybe you're brainstorming, maybe you're researching. I think 10 minutes six days a week is better than one hour one day a week.
Speaker 1:Do you find like taking an intentional day off is helpful for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I really and that was something too with being an author and being doing the grant writing work where I'm self-employed I would I really had to train myself to take weekends off yeah because I, because I kind of thought, well, I'm, you know, I'm at home, like I might as well just do some work, like it's right there. But I really realized like I think, with your, with a creative, with anything creative, I think you can do only about four hours in a day. Yeah, that's like the sweet spot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could see that and I I've tried to be very intentional about taking a day off from honestly like anything so like I. Whether it's Saturday or Sunday, I don't really care, but it's often like it's not that I'm not gonna do anything, but I'm not gonna plan anything, yeah. And then it's like oh, I might go for a hike. Or a friend is like hey, want to grab coffee.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, yeah, sure, let's go, but it's always like don't work, Don't have like the pressure of like you have to get this thing done and it's very refreshing and renewing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think once you go back to work you're better at it. You can do it more efficiently after that break.
Speaker 1:Okay, so is there anything else you'd like to share before I move us along?
Speaker 2:um, I don't think so. I think I'm, I think I'm good yeah cool, so I had.
Speaker 1:This is a random thought that I've been thinking about because I've been trying to declutter my house, okay, and I have like multiple drawers that are just dedicated to like orphan courts, okay, yeah and I've definitely gotten rid of the stuff related to them, but I'm like paranoid that one of them is going to be like the one right, yeah, do you experience this we have a box of cords at our house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just random cords and it's. I think we have that. I have a problem more with like craft supplies, like just random boxes, like I might need this. You know, one inch piece of ribbon one day, so I need to save that. So, yeah, I totally get that. I have that with yarn too because I crochet, but I don't crochet a lot and I'm like but I spent money on it, it it's just like this big thing.
Speaker 1:So I've actually started donating stuff to the Animal Humane Society. So I'm like crocheting with all these old yarn pieces, this horrible ugly blanket. And then I just like bring it and they're like thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the dogs love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the dogs love it. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think I need to set myself a deadline on the cords, though, and be like if you haven't used anything out of this drawer in like a year just throw it away?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so, because you can always buy a new one too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not that expensive. Yeah, they're not that expensive.
Speaker 2:I know, but it's it's. It's hard to like when you have that moment like, oh, I should have kept it.
Speaker 1:That's the worst feeling and I do that with my closet a little bit of like. I've heard that turn your hangers.
Speaker 2:Oh, your hangers? I've heard that too. Yeah, and then after a year, if you haven't worn it like get rid of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I've never done that.
Speaker 2:It seems like a good idea yeah.
Speaker 1:I've never actually turned the hangers, but I do try to go through and be like I don't think you've worn this in a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's not going to change.
Speaker 1:You're going to look the same in it.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So why are you holding it yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, so what have you been obsessing over lately?
Speaker 2:I've been really into. So there's a show it's a couple years ago on HBO Max. It's called Undercover Underage and it's about this team of like amazing women that go undercover as like teenage girls and catch like abusers online, like online pedophiles.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they work with law enforcement and it's so satisfying, it's like kind of like to catch a predator. But but it's just with this team of women that kind of know the game, that kind of know it's a reality show oh, wow it's a real show, it's, it's the um, the it's with a non-profit, that's it's called so.
Speaker 2:So safe from safe from online sex abuse. I think I, oh I just love it. It's like that's. That's like asking your question about like, do any characters based on real people? Like sometimes the vengeance demon in me comes out a little bit, like that kind of like. It's just so satisfying to watch these predators get taken down. So that's what I've been watching a lot of that lately that sounds good.
Speaker 1:Is HBO. It's on.
Speaker 2:HBO max yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:I've been watching big bang theory on there. Oh, okay, that's where I've been seeing the um sex in the city yeah. So, uh, what I'm obsessing over is my, my sister-in-law and my mom both got new horses and I met them for the first time over the weekend or gosh, I've lost track of time yeah, yeah, I was in Minnesota last weekend and, like I, love them so much and.
Speaker 1:I I grew up with horses. I've done like um horse therapy. But like my mom's horse, albert, is so fun and like he, he's very green, he's six years old and he's very playful, whereas her, her um horse passed this winter unexpectedly and he was super chill, like very serious. But elbert is just like what's going on and like checking out, like looking himself in the mirror and just very playful. And then katie, she got three. Joey is an old man and then, sully, salute to America, he's thoroughbred.
Speaker 1:He used to be a racing horse from Kentucky and then Patriot they call him Pat, pat and Sully loved me and I found his scratching spots and he was showing me where to scratch him and he was just stretching his neck.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so sweet. You got your own equine therapy right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like I love these guys, yeah, yeah that's so fun I was. I'm like wait, how do I go visit the horses more? Yeah but my friend Philip said I could come visit his parents horses. Oh, there you go, okay. So yeah, um, do you have any recommendations for our audience? I do.
Speaker 2:It's totally random, but not book related at all, but kind of crunchy Zen. So I have tried every kind of natural deodorant that there is and I the best one is actually a local company. It's called Little Seed Farm and their deodorant Like if you're a person that wants to, you know, I I don't even know what there's aluminum is bad for you all there's all these reasons that you're not supposed to know.
Speaker 1:I'm the person that wants to circle my dishes. Okay, so little seed farm.
Speaker 2:Little seed is a local uh, I think they're based in Lebanon, okay, and they do this amazing um deodorant that like works.
Speaker 1:Yeah so that's my, yeah, that's my.
Speaker 2:That's the key with saying it from the, you know from any, everywhere, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like do these organic things work the aluminum is definitely an issue.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:We'll link to the recommendations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll ask you to send me that yeah.
Speaker 1:I've definitely tried a couple and I'm like oh, these don't 100% work, and they're not cheap either.
Speaker 2:They're not cheap.
Speaker 1:So you're like testing. Could these places like have they should give like little sample tests.
Speaker 2:They should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great idea, my recommendation I brought, I'm going to casually reach down here and not let there be a ton of silence. So teas. So one thing I've learned is that there's stuff in teas that you shouldn't be drinking.
Speaker 1:So it's been kind of hard to like find things that are healthy, organic. Um, this one I got from Target. It's what is it? Puka, I think that's how it's pronounced, but it's all natural ingredients. There's not even the natural flavoring, cause we can go into what's in natural flavoring, but we'll pass on that now. But I really like this. Chamomile, vanilla and manuka honey. Blissful calm.
Speaker 2:Yum, that sounds good, I like it.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to quit my coffee but clearly that's not working. And then this one, telka. This is from Australia. Okay, I love this tea. I've been drinking it for a few years. This one's a lavender moon for blessed sleep, ooh. But you do have to order pretty well ahead of time. Especially around Christmas time, this gets very delayed, okay, but I love this tea.
Speaker 2:So good, the tin is adorable, I know it's from Australia Because again, they have better regulations.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, Australia Again they have better regulations, right, yeah? So what are you looking forward to this week? So this week, so my new book launches and I'm having a zoom launch party for it. So that's happening this week. So readers from all over the world are registering and then I'm going to do a little reading on the book and then also my my first book, I'm Unbound by Shadows, came out in audiobook recently and I'm gonna have the narrator on the zoom call and kind of, we're gonna talk together. So, yeah, I'm excited about that.
Speaker 1:That's really fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I like try to promote it, but that's okay, yeah, yeah this isn't coming out till after, but when it comes in august, I'm also having an in-person book launch party in nashville.
Speaker 1:What do you know?
Speaker 2:what date and time it's august 13th, it'll be at honey tree meadery and because there's hellhounds in this next book, I'm working with wags and walks who are bringing puppies I love them to the event. Yeah, so it's. There's a on my Instagram at Avalon underscore Griffin. There's a link in my bio to for all the details of the in-person release.
Speaker 1:Okay, We'll share your Instagram. I was like what's that called?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we'll share that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like, as I asked you what you're looking forward to.
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm like as I asked you what you're looking forward to, I was like wait, what am I? I don't even. I didn't even think about this?
Speaker 1:what am I looking forward to? Um, I'm prepared just relaxing. Yes, yeah, I am actually really looking forward to. I have cranial sacral massage this afternoon, which is always like very helpful, very different massage from like a normal massage, um, um. But I am really looking forward to it cause it really helps my neck and my head and everything.
Speaker 2:So that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker 1:Well, um, you shared where we could find you and we'll definitely link to that. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and we'll um, um, look forward to having your book come out and yeah. So thank you for listening to my crunchy zen era. Um, please tune in next week. Thanks for listening to my crunchy zen era. Please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. This podcast is produced by me, nicole swisher and my good friends summer Harkup and Liz Colter, editing is by Drew Harrison Media and recording is done by Lagos Creative in Nashville, tennessee. Thanks for hanging out. We'll be back next week.
